Oh come now Sephiroth, Moak et al are doing exactly what you suggest, venting their furstrations and trying to best articulate their beliefs about problems in the Gnutella network. Of course if those problems are real, then Gnutella must have got worse since Bearshare and LW grew into the huge clients they are toda, so the "new lows" statement is quite justified.

They already have, and you have already replied with your opinion of their views, so let's leave it at that.

OpenSource P2P Debate, it's about choice
OpenSource P2P Net Discussion Thread
Do you accept Spyware?
General Gnutella Developers
http://opensourcep2p.sourceforge.net/

I didnt ask for a list of links to be given the run around.
I think its really a very simple request that isnt inappropiate to ask someone who is going at the lengths that moak is by posting threads like this and etc.

What is their purpose and what exact their "great" vision of gnutella is.. I think that if a persin really had one and trule believed in it that they would remember and would be able to explaining it to people should be a very easy thing to do. As well as going into detail how the network has gotten worst.

Why do you wanna have everything explained? why don't you read existing sources? We explained it again and again, and we are tired of that.

But ok, i'll try to explain it -again- to you, if you read it without saying "wrong" because it's cool to say "wrong"; just sit back and relax........

There are - in my opinion - 3 or 4 problems with gnutella:

- as in many other threads mentioned, the "commercial ones":
(O) Building Spyware into clients isn't ok, there's the feature to don't install it, but: the normal user doesn't even know what spyware is!!
I have nothing against making money with a client, i hate that they make money with information of uninformed users, would you like to have your credit card number publicied without knowing that??

(O) The influence in the GDF, especially BS alias Vinnie: If you haven't realized it yet, Vinnie rules the GDF, everything that he says has to be done. If you keep to don't implement it, you're concidered as unhealthy for the net, without a technical reason (see Xolox, and later the rest of the 0.4 clients)

(O) Endless debates about small topics are slowing down developing

(O) The commercials only do what's best for THEM, not for the network, do you really think clustering clients as BS does is OK? The time that they prefer own clients has already come, a net split between them and the rest is needed!

(O) Changes are implemented before thinking about them, for example Ultrapeers

and much more...

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

Please, Seph, don't say "no" before thinking about these points.. otherwise the effect will be that you not encouraging new ideas,but destroying all.. Maybe this is also my last post, i've much to do for my last big tests in school.

as morgwen has in his signature:
patience is a virtue
thx morg*g*

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GREETZ - *Phantom81* ;-)

I asked moak to explain his post and his great ideal for gnutella which he spoke of. Which im still waiting...

Anyways your post is exactly what im talking about. You just posted bashed programs and the network today.. and on topics that dont concern you. Like "spyware" worry about your own box. Many people know about spyware but just dont care.

Now about your points..

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

What about programs like xolox and others that dont or wont partcipate?? And how do you stop programs from implementing "bad" features on a open network? Also there is allready a community built but a small group of people here like yourself, moak and others seem content in splitting it up and tearing it apart.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

100% compatible is impossible. Your assuming that developers will agree with each other 100% of the time and that every developer will implement every proposal 100% of the time even though that may not be the direction they want to take their program. Over time if a program doesnt support major advances then they could get left behind because legacy versions cant be supported forever.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

Good idea but how will the developer net get enough users on it to sustain the net and be large enough to accurately portray the current network.. Its not that easy. There are projects like gnutella simulators which can accomplish this.

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

Whats the GDC? If you mean the GDF then it think your wrong. Look at the second paragraph of the next question.

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

There is no reason to do that since the GDF is an open and free place for everyone started by gnutellahosts.com and a idea like that really goes against what the GDF is suppose to be. It allready is a neutral place if some programs dont partcipate then thats their decision they can live with it.

Polling to see what is done i dont think should be used on a regular basis because its slow, and because its an open network people wont change their mind because the poll says otherwise. Being an open network is really gnutella's greatest strength and greatest weakness..

[EDIT]

Detail: BearShare connected to Gnutella. 'nuff said.
I don't think I have to go into how the BearShare BrowNosers are screwing things up too.

Sorry, it seems that moak left the GF, if you want to know why (if you don't already know), please come to the irc channels and ask him.

You just asked for what's wrong with the network, and i listed some facts that are discussed in many threads, they are not only my opinion...

If someone really doesn't care, he can install as much as he want, but i c it on this pc (a multi user pc) where i have to remove accidently installed spyware (e.g. by my sister) every 2 days.

The problem are not people who don't care, the problem are people wo don't KNOW it!

If you'd install a programm, would you uncheck "CommonName Toolbar" for example (or would you try to remove it if it's automatically installed)?

The first question is easy- if you want to implement it, you can do it, if you want to add your ideas, you have to be member of the small community of developers, and if the protocol doesn't fit your needs, you don't have to use it.

bad features...hm... i haven't thought much about that yet, maybe it could work like this: If a member of this community implements a bad feature, he'll no longer be a member; if someone else implements a bad feature, his client will simply be incompatible.

I know it's not possible, but it should be a main goal to get near the 100%.
Developers don't need to implement all features, but if they are to far away from the other clients, they are incompatible because some features are *NEEDED*
They then have to search a solution, e.g. finding another protocol, or impementing these features.

That's really a problem, maybe we could switch some clients into a both-net mode, that they use the normal net, and have some ports free for building a test net, which is not directly connected to the user net (it would be about 1% more CPU usage to the users) - that's the price for new updated software.

No i meant GDC, the GnutellaDev Community, founded in #gnutelladev. It was a try to collect some developers and develop the clients with equal feature decisions etc.

There is a reason to leave the GDF, i repeat it: Vinnie!! Look in my posting you quoted to get the answer why he's the reason.

i forgot to say, pollings should be made in the member area, where the developers are, and here it is how it could work:

Someone has an idea, say SuperduperGIGApeers. He writes a description about it. Then, it will be discussed and changed in CHAT or FORUM, with a time limit, let's say 2 weeks. Then there's a poll where every member can chose what's best for him. At the end, say another week later, it's ready for implementing into the Developers.net, or if noone wants it, it will not be used.

Any questions?

__________________
GREETZ - *Phantom81* ;-)

Morgwen, please remove the unecessary flooding of Sephiroth quoting the entire post of Phantom81. Sephiroth, this type of deliberate obfuscation of the forum is what gets people the name of 'troll'. If you behave like one, people will call you one. Why don't you edit your post and remove the 30 lines of quote before Morgwen has to? The original post is immediately above your post, you should not quote the whole thing AGAIN immediately below your post.

I hate 'the' GDF and I've only read two messages there. I hate it because it is 'behind closed doors' - they do not promote it's existence, it is not listed in Yahoo - I found two or three other P2P discussion groups there, but not 'the' gdf.

Accept firstly that there is no 'the' gdf. There will never be a 'the' gdf. There are already too many other gdfs .. these need to be consolidated if other developers want to get anywhere. Make it someplace open and friendly. Don't go with this idea of having restricted members, expelling people etc. That is just childish.

The one criteria for whether something is considered is whether it makes sense. Post references and background information so people can understand your suggestions, and they will be considered if they make sense. If people post nonsense, contentless propoganda, just ignore them.

I make the above observations because I think that an open protocol should be developed in the open - it seems the only way. And so a culture needs to be adopted which is defensive of important information and ideas, and which reduces the flooding we see so much of in this forum.

By all means people should be able to give their opinions, but when it becomes repetition of things previously stated, please at most give a link to where it was previously stated.

In response to the question of how do you enforce well behaved clients in an open network, for the answer lets look at the internet in general. It is an open network - the only requirement for participation is to speak TCP/IP or your packets won't get routed onto the network.

So why is it that people aren't able to just bombard servers, send wrong packets etc? Well, they can, but the servers and all good network software which interfaces with the network are built defensively. They sanity check packets before passing or accepting them. A lot of time goes into this, and gnutella it seems is too young to have developed a lot of this, so 'exploits' such as passing encrypted packets are tolerated by the clients, when in fact they should not be.

Then there is the 'organised defensive response' technique - how does the internet deal with spammers? Well, in fact people who adminsiter mail gateways put a lot of time and effort into protecting you from spam, believe it or not. There is a forum news.admin.net-abuse on usenet with many subbranches for particular protocols. One of these deals with email spam. People who ALLOW the use of their email gateways for a significant amount of spam, find that mail coming from their gateway is blocked. This makes it annoying if they host people other than spammerss as well, eg if ibm allowed spammers to relay through their gateway, all the ibm staff would be up in arms because their business emails would not be answered or would bounce.

I hope you see the analogy I am trying to make here, Sephiroth - gnutella is growing up and needs to learn to start to behave itself, or it will die. Sad fact of life. There are plenty of competing protocols now with the same idea. The only thing gnutella has going for it (believe me!) is the large number of open source clients. If these guys die, then you have two or three big commercial clients, and that is no different to say fast-track - except fast-track was designed properly from the beginning, and works. There are lots of fast-tracks. There is only one gnutella.

So when the open source clients die, gnutella will be eaten by fast-track or something similar, and then you will be back to square one - lots of small clients trying to build a protocol from scraps of opensource software.

Make yourself a shortcut - go with the opensource software now and build on it sensibly, not higgledy piggledy two-weeks-thinking-before-we-implement-something-fashion.

For people eager to get 'things underway' there are plenty of things that can still be worked on while other things are being thrashed out.

I think LimeWire were unconsionable in bringing out SuperDuperPeers the way they did - effectively blocking older clients from 98% of their clients overnight. They should have phased it in gradually until other clients had accepted that the implementation they had chosen of ultrapeers was the right one and had started to build compatible clients, then reduce the number of connections to non-ultrapeer clients.

Yes, this results in less 'benefit' to the limewire clients who have done "ooh so much work" to 'improve the gnutella network'. But it is polite. Sorry, you may respond 'but this is business' - I respond 'b*ll*&%'. The most successful business people are also the most polite people you will meet. Having an eye for an opportunity is not the same thing as trying to bend the world to your will and pulling the wool over the eyes of your customers. That is very common, but by no means necassary for success.

Spamware IS evil. Spyware IS evil. In current implementations, the two are the same. Advertisers want to 'target' their ads, so the customer is spied on. Sorry, but it is a fact. So far this has been happening for too short a time to see the consequences. And like most computer crime, the consequences will be under-reported even in the rare cases that they are detected, because they are embarrassing.

A network free of commercial clients seems the only response at the moment, to all these problems. We are fighting a <B>threats</B>. It is not that the network is completely screwed right now, it is the fact that it looks like it is getting screwed, and if we don't do anything it will be screwed. It is not that people are completely spied on but it is the threat that they will be endlessly watched and marketed to in return for the priveledge of communication.

As you said, most people don't care. Most people don't care when they buy petrol that the environment is being screwed for profit. But luckily some do, and I'm thankful for it. The less that ordinary people care, the more extreme those who do care have to become when the threat is real and dire.

Nos

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"It has served us well, this myth of Christ" -- Pope Leo X

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I do not know of any 30 line rule if a Mod askes(in morgwens case askes nicely) then ill be happy to go back and edit out the quotes when i see such a notice keep in mind that i dont visit these forums everyday.

The fact that you personally attack my past posts by calling them flooding, ask me to be modded, and then hint that im a troll.. Then you expect me to take you seriously?

The gdf and network resources should be more easily able to access and find them and it will happen eventually not like it can be done overnight. You only read two messages so you really dont know anything that goes on there.

You see the major difference between gnutella and networks like fasttrack is two things.

first its an OPEN NETWORK!! Is Fasttrack an open network? No.. Its a propierty network.

and second gnutella is a PROTOCOL not just a network.

So your whole open source is the only hope for the future isnt valid because its impossible for a few programs to gain total control of an open network because if other programs dont like anything then they can just go start their own network.

Spyware let me repeat this for the millionth time SPYWARE IS NOT A NETWORK ISSUE.. Its the users choice to use whatever program they want. If you can use whatever program you want then others deserve that same right without your interferance because you have no bussiness to worry about whats on other people's computer because it DOES NOT AFFECT YOU.

Also i think its important that gnutellahosts not limewire had the first implementation of a "ultrapeer" type system with there reflector.. In either case they only improve the network and dont have any negative because nodes that dont have ultrapeers just connect like normal. Also i think its important to mention that other programs will be compatible with Limewires implementation.

In the end I think your just making up problems as you go along. Also remember that Gnutella is a protocol and if you want a "commerical-free" network then go start one like openp2pnet. Whos going to stop you?

You do not need to "fix" the current network in any way and if you truely believe that this "network free of commercial clients" will be as great as you claim it will be and it will be people's "only hope" in the future then im sure that you will have no problem in getting people to use it without resorting to bashing the current network, programs and etc at all.

let me repeat this for the zillionth time, YES IT IS!
I don't want to contribute to the spam/spyware companies in any way! I don't want to be part of their support network.
When you connect to me using BearShare you are using my CPU to help support BearShare spyware.
Get that crap off Gnutella!
The only way to do it is to block them all!
Block, block, block!

Sephiroth...

Nosferatu is right you are flooding... you repeat over and over again the same! You called others trolls too, you are whining EVERY time when somebody DON´T agree with you that the people attack you... do you think we can take you seriously???

How old are you? 15???

Morgwen

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patience is a virtue

Morg,
You'll notice Moak has done the same thing. I don't know how many threads he's started or taken onto his anti-bearshare/limewire soapbox. We've all read it and at this point it's just trolling.

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-- cut here --

If posting what you accuse me of posting the same thing over and over isnt that what many others here including yourself have done too? Much of the "problems" and etc listed by other people here have also been repeated many many times over in the past here. Yet im the only one "flooding."

This isnt the first time you have called me a "whiner" for posting and supporting my opinions which disagree with yours. Why your allowed to get away with all this is beyond me.

Also please find here in this thread where i called someone a troll..

Im sick of dealing with this everytime i post here and it isnt what some people want to hear..

Prove your words. how many, which soapbox?

I don´t know which language you understand???

You are a whiner because YOU whine every time that somebody attacks you... in this thread you said that Nosferatu has attacked you, WHERE??? Yes he disagrees but where he has ATTACKED YOU???

I never said you called someone in THIS thread a troll, but you have done it and it doesn´t matter in which thread!!!

Yes I am sick too, every time we discuss something you come here and tell us your wisdom (this part is OK!!!) after someone disagrees you whine that the people attack you (this part is childish!). If you want to discuss with us act like a man not like a kid!

Morgwen

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patience is a virtue