Blocking other servents (BS answer for everything)
 

Hi,
Morpheus starts to become an (important) part on Gnutella and our friend Vinnie start to think about blocking and splitting Gnutella and Bearshare, again. Vinnie's solution for everything... boooring.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/5756
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/5760

If I have to choose between bearshare and Morpheus... I would prefer Morpheus!

Let him go - bye Vinnie! :)

Morgwen

It's only what Vinnie wants:

I'm that Mike, by the way... *sighs*

I like your statement! :)

Morgwen

The anwser to Mikes post is very funny:

**************************************************

From: "freepeers" <info@f...>
Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: Timestamping Alternate-Location





--- In the_gdf@y..., "Mike Green" <mgreen@e...> wrote:
> Damn it Vinnie, cut the crap! What YOU want is not what EVERYONE
ELSE wants!

God has spoken, and the word is "YYYYMMDDHHMMSS".

And stop chanting the "Just be different" Macintosh mantra.

**************************************************

Yes dear users the next time you go in the church, don´t forget to pray to Vinnie...

the godness of Gnutella
king of bearshare.net
and the Lord of chaos!

Vinnie should be taken back to the reality!

Morgwen

Take it with humour
 

http://www.milkdrinker.com/slashdot_vinnie2.gif
I am Vinnie, of Borg. Resistance is futile, we will assimilate your Gnutella.

www.bearshare.net

Now has Vinnie removed 0.4 protocol support!

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../03062002d.php

I ask several developers, if this is necessary... they said all "NO"!

Vinnie is trying to build up Gnutella with his rules...


You should read this thread too:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=8558

Morgwen

I think it's sure that...
 

I think it's sure that Bearshare prefers own client connections:

I've made a test: installed BearShare and connected to the public.bearshare.net host. 2-3 minutes later i had 10 bearshare connections.

Then, i removed all bearshare hostcache entries and connected to connect1.gnutellanet.com... and... got nearly 100% gnucleus connections

one thing is clear: BS can connect to others, but it doesn't get the IPs of "concurrent" clients by default.

That's the politics of Vinnie

Hi Phantom!

Yes this is the bearshare reality!

bearshare prefer his own nodes and wants now to use the other nodes as a safety, you should read this post:

http://www.bearshare.net/forum/showt...threadid=10411

They are all denying until Vinnie confirms that his hostcaches only supports "OWN" nodes!

Funny is that Vinnie discussed in the public, that he want to block "Xolox" because is unhealthy for the net... later "ALL" 0.4 clients - and "NOW" he is blocking all clients!?!? So "ALL" non-bearshare clients are unhealthy for the net? Which net? The "NEW" vinnie.net???

I should mention here Limewire does the same with "THEIR" router.limewire.com...

Morgwen

The only thing that is unhealthy...
 

The only thing that is unhealthy is the hole in their money pocket that they want to shrink....

and this hole, they think, are all the other clients.. understandable.

i think there is already an only-bearshare net and an only-limewire net.

But they forget one thing: if they separate from the rest of the network, they get less users and less files, and also the silliest users will see that the real "community" is better than bs+lw


btw morg: hi long time no see ;)

Re: The only thing that is unhealthy...
 

Limewire is still using other hostcaches and bearshare (you should read the bearshare.net thread!) want to "mix" IP in a new hostcache!

This means the user see "ONLY" that the most connetions are from Limewire and bearshare - so they think they are the "MAYOR" part of the net!

Morgwen

P.S.:

I think today I will be on #gnutelladev! :)

I cant beleive this! So basicly if you aint BS or LW youre not on the network! Maybe they need to go buy their own network.

From: freepeers info@f...
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Feature Query Proposal

--- In the_gdf@y..., "jbt00000" <junkmail@j...> wrote:
> --- In the_gdf@y..., "freepeers" <info@f...> wrote:
> I would hope other developers would jump on the bandwagon and adopt
> useful features, but based on past history (yes, LW and BS
> are included), things move slowly (when were ultrapeer
> and huge approved?). I wont base my commercial existance on the
> widespread deployment of all my ideas by other servents.

If you have a commercial interest then you should both operate a host
cache, and include connection preferencing features to make your
clients clump together. This was our solution, and it works quite
nicely without requiring protocol extensions. LimeWire has used that
solution for a while now and it has worked well for them too.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/6284

ahhhh
 

Ok, so BS prefers BS connections so what? It still connects to other clients. But it is better for BS users to be clumped together. Why? Because so many of the clients out there do not support the newer features that will make gnutella a great network. If I can only search a portion of the network I want my results from the most up to date clients that support great features like HUGE, GGEP, UP, ect...
I dont want to be connected to clients that are no longer in development and bringing the network down. Why does everyone here insist that these older clients are the best thing. Fear of change? Gnutella must change to grow and evolve.

Gnutellafan!

We are not talking here about Xolox or other 0.4 clients - we are talking about "ALL" clients!

As I said its not healthier for gnutella only for the Vinnie.net, this isn´t Gnutella anymore!

Morgwen

of my 10 connection 1 or 2 are usually non-BS clients. I am clearly still connected to the rest f the network. Even IF (big if) Vinnie wants to completely separate BS from gnutella it is his choice. I would leave BS then unless it offered superior performance to the gnet.

I still see no argument against clumping as long as you dont totally cut of the rest of the network.

a healthy pocket is a full pocket $$$$
or a bank account
when did gnutella become a profit center?

The argument is fairnes for the users and clients which do not use Limewire or bearshare!

They should respect the whole net - not only their own nodes to make more money!

Otherwise its an own net!

Morgwen

I don't use microsoft products anymore because I won't give any $$ to bill gates and his world domination plans.
I don't use bearshare because I won't give him any $$ towards his gnutella domination plans. He shut down XOLX for no reason and that sucks.
People should have a choice as to what clients they are willing to share files with.
All clients should allow the user to block any client he wants to.
This would also allow users to move to different areas on the network and find different files since this clustering started.
Code to do this is now available for Gnucleus, posted to the forum. It will be a simple job to apply it to any open source client.

First of all: Gnutella is not a democracy. It is completely legitimate, if some clients don't connect to certain other clients to improve performance for their users.

Second: Fairness or respect is not an issue here, outside of cloud-cuckoo-land, money, however, is. So you can't blame anybody for trying to make a living offering Gnutella-clients.

Third: Neither Bearshare not LimeWire are blocking all other clients, - they are reserving connection slots for clients which match certain criteria.

Taliban!

First:

If you want compatible clients "ALL" clients have to follow the same rules - so Gnutella is a democracy, actually the standards are fixed by the GDF!

Second:

Yes I can if they do it with "spyware", I have no problem that they try to earn money!

Third:

They do! Both have an own hostcache which is "exlusively" for their nodes! So they have their "private" net and the Gnutella net as a safety!

You should read the whole thread before you post!

Morgwen

should read "Gnutella as a leeching pool" LOL

There are no Gnutella standards, the GDF is discussing Proposals and Protocols some may implement while others may not.

Spyware is a tale, mothers tell their pre-pubescent kids to scare them. If I may give you one advice: "Don't believe the hype!"

I assume you would pay for the additional bandwidth of letting other clients connect to your hostscache. Anyways, you can connect to router.limewire.com with various clients, including mutella, for example, which just happens to be one I tried.

And you should get your facts before YOU post rather than telling wild stories about what you suppose to be the truth without making the slightest attempt to verify it.

I have done it...

Where is your verification?

Spyware a tale???

No Gnutella standards???

Hmm wild stories...

You can connect to router.limewire.com???

Lets see what afisk said about this:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=6515

Yes but YOU are something special you can connect with other clients!

I have investigated - I posted many links I asked several well informed people! But if you are to lazy to read the posts its not my problem!

Morgwen

Taliban!

Why do you need a new profile is your old not good enough?

Troll John!

Morgwen

That does only prove my point!

I would love to send you my version of mutella, so you can see for yourself.

The statements that router.limewire.com is shut down for the public prove your point???

Perhaps your German is better than your English! :D

Morgwen

what about this new client that is charging $5 if you want to pay? You think people will pay and keep this company alive?
Why can't gnutella exist because open source code is all done and written because a few people gave a little time for free?
Isn't it the commercial interests that are causing all these changes in a effort to match or catch up to illegal trading systems (for profit systems that put up servers full of illegal MP3s so their network looks like people are sharing).
If people would be satisfied with the way things are now, you search, get a file and be happy, then we have the code and it's done.
Everyone thinks this is some sort of sports event where you have to "win". Gnutella will never become the #1 trading system, because illegal systems will always be better. But Gnutella will always be there because it's open and honest (people really "trade" with it).
No need for greed because the code is all done and anyone creating a "new" client and charging $$ would look like a fool.
So maybe it's greed that is creating more greed.

More info:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9064

Morgwen

Re: Take it with humour
 

All your gnutella are belonging to us

i get it
 

I finally get it. As posted by Unregistered above you are all mad because BS and LW are improving gnutella. Your right! I am mad at them to. I mean I really like gnutella 0.56. Ok so you couldnt get anything, the network was crap, full of spam and pretty much going down the drain. But at least it was open source and non-commercial (as long as you dont count AOL as commercial and a closed source program as open source - but thats all besides the point). Simple fact of the matter is that it was the greed of BS and LW that saved this network from itself and we should never forgive them for that!

BTW, anyone know where I can download 0.56. I really hate all these new features and great performance I am getting and would like a good old fashion crappy client.

Re: i get it
 

The question is only which network they improve!

They sure improve the new vinnie.net and the limewire.net... but gnutella???

I think gnutella is dead, the idea behind gnutella is dead... I am thinking with some friends about alternatives!

We are planing a new protocol!

Morgwen

gnutella is ALIVE
 

Gnutella is more alive than it has ever been. Without BS and LW gnutella would have died along time ago. We need progress to support a larger network.

I think there is still much left to be desired in gnutella, that is why I suggested FreeTella.

I wish you luck if you start a new network and a new protocol. Be warned, an open protocol is going to be slow. There will be many forces pushing this way and that. Just look at the GDF.

Re: gnutella is ALIVE
 

Yes I know that is why we want to start a new one!

We learn from the gnutella faults!

Morgwen

Re: gnutella is ALIVE
 

LOL, nice try. what a propaganda.
BS and LW proprietary interests are a pain not an advantage.

Thank You Cap'n Bry!
 

Other than Tom and Justin, the person that receives most credit for Gnutella would probably be Bryan Maryland ("Cap'n Bry"). One can safely say that he was the first to fully document the Gnutella protocol (and provide sample code to go with it). If it wasn't for that documentation, there would have been nothing to improve upon.

Did you use gnutella before before BS and LW? These are revolutionizing gnutella?

Proprietary? WHAT EVER? They are working with the protocol modifications of the GDF. What is proprietary? Just because they are clustering their clients? They have to because so much of the network is still being dragged down by old clients.

Which old clients, how much of them, what bad are they causing, any statistics? Proof your rumours.

Re: i get it
 

Hey gnutellafan if you really want a copy of Gnutella 0.56 you can get here.
http://gnutella.8k.com/v056.html

:D Collect them all. Funny ha ha... :D

Yes
 

Morgwen, you are a ****ing imbecile.

Re: Yes
 

*yawn* Vinnie, do you really think it cares us what you say?

Re: Yes
 

Good point Vinnie! :rolleyes:

Morgwen

P.S.:

Vinnie YOU know here are NO flames allowed! Here is not bearshare.net!

All we have to do to get away from Vinnie and the like is to let him have GNUTELLA CONNECT.
We will change to OPENSOURCE CONNECT/0.6 that way he can never use it and try to use our resources to provide data to his $$$ clients.
Start coding now! It only takes a one line change. No need to change the entire protocol, it works fine as is.
The new rule/law on the OpenSource network is no commercial greedy clients allowed. If anyone tries to make a buck from their software, and/or doesn't provide source code they are completely blocked.
A list of commercial clients will be posted to this forum and then will be blocked automatically.
No more greed!

Re: Re: i get it
 

How can you improve gnutella network? By improving the clients! You can improve your own client, but not others. I can't see your point.

And what comes to clustering, it is necessary because some clients have implemented great features wich are useless if there are no other clients to support them too. So, let's cluster the clients closer together and the new feature will work.

When there are no clusters, all clients are workins as they do. When clusters are formed, the clustered part is working propably better than others. The non-clustered part is still working as before. Clustered and non-clustered parts are still tightly connected together and can get files from each others. I can't see what's wrong with that.

Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

You can improve the protocol which all clients use! And not impletent some features which only your own nodes understand!

Morgwen

Re: Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

Good example is handshaking protocol v0.6, instead of protocol v0.4. But you still can implement the support to the new protocol only for your client. If there are some old client's wich don't support the new protocol, what can you do for it? They can't get the same benefit that other clients wich support the new protocol.

Are you referring to some specific client and feature, like BearShare and hashes? BearShare (and the newest LimeWire, as far as I know) uses SHA1 hashes. If there will be another client wich support SHA1 hashes, it is automatically compatible with BearShare.

If you develope a new feature, it is obvious that other cleints must also support the same feature until there is some use of it. Of course, there are some features wich can help all clients without any support from them (like pong caching), but most features require support from all clients (like hashing).

It is no good to stick in old protocols and features.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

What do you think why this is called "handshaking"???

All clients which are in "actice" developement use 0.6! So tell me why they don´t work out a new protocol with all new features that "all" other clients can use them too?

This is improving the network!

Perhaps you can remeber as Xolox developed multi-source-downloads (the first Gnutella client), how angry Vinnie was that they are not in the GDF and share their ideas... and why does Vinnie don´t share HIS ideas? This is called promotion, now he can claim he has sha1 hashes and nobody else has...

Vinnie commercials interest have the highest priority and the network improvement, I mean the whole network not only a part of it, have only a low priority!

So tell me why there is NO cooperation?

Its easy... other non commercial developer have not the time and money to create the features in the same time - if Vinnie don´t share his ideas he have in several months a better client than all others, so now the majority of the users decide to use his client (and Limewire) - the others die... more user = more money!!!

But the other developer don´t care, they want to improve the network and share their ideas...

I have to repeat, why does Vinnie improve his own net and not GNUTELLA???

What he is doing, is creating a new own network! He talked over a year ago about creating his own network... do you really think this is the last step?

Morgwen

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

I can't see your point. As you said, all clients wich are in active developement use 0.6 handshaking. 0.6 is the new protocol, and all clients (wich are under active developemen, not dead clients!) are using it. So, what's the problem?

Vinnie is making a geat client. Yes, other non-commercial clients may not develope as fast as BearShare and LimeWire. So, how can we help it? BearShare and LimeWire are using standardized features like SHA1 hashes and UltraPeers. Other developers can make compatible clients if they want.

Someone have to be the leader and show the way. Currently BearShare and LimeWire are leading and competiting against each other, causing the gnutella to develop fast. Other clients are following, maybe not that fast. There is no really a way to help other developers to implement compatible features to their clients.

This is how I feel it.

Can you give me a link where he have said that? I don't know what he have said before, but now it really looks like there is no any sign that he is making his own private network. He would be already done that if he wanted to.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

First Limewire use no SHA1 hashes and bearshare use not ultrapeers (currently)!!!

Of course they can help, if they create a new protocol with this and more features as a standard! But such a protocol is an agreement between several developers NOT just TWO... so if you want to improve Gnutella, you should discuss your ideas and the best should be used - not impletent new features and force others to use them too!!! This is seperating!!!

Vinnie said several times that he want to create an own network... the first time over a year ago, and recently in the GDF!!! Did you notice that Vinnie is talking on bearshare.net about the "bearshare net" and not Gnutella?

If you really want to know the truth about Mr. Falco you should read his post here, on zeropaid and in the GDF!

If I have time I search for some links...

Morgwen

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i get it
 

What I have heard and seen screen shots, the newest LimeWire, 2.3.2 or something, is using SHA1 hashes. And BearShare 3.0.0 will be compatble with LimeWire ultrapeers. I have tested the unreleased alpha by my self, and it is connecting very well with LimeWire ultrapeers (obiviously there is no BearShare ultrapeers available yet) and leafs.

Well, least two biggest clients will be compatible with each others. Of course, it would be good to have real standards wich tell how it should be done.

Re: Re: Yes
 

Give Vinnie a month to turn this into Vinnie.Net along with the rest of gnutella...