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General Gnutella Developers How about a section 'General Gnutella Developers' to seperate users questions from developers "stuid high tech" discussions? That way propably more users are attracted to talk about Gnutella's future and developers find a forum to meet and exchange their knowledge and ideas. I think dreams, ideas and knowledge are a key to an improved Gnutella (okay _hard_ work from the client developers is another!). I know there is not a lot of interest right now. Just an idea, I'm a little bit sorry that Gnutella does not get further developed, or not in any significant speed. Energy was wasted in offtopic discussions (about Spyware, closed-doors-information-policy or civilwars between developers), while other proprietary protocols like FastTrack are currently much more modern, share more files and have more users. Ah, don't forget eDonkey and Audiogalaxy, very famous too, more promising protocolls will come. Gnutella is (or was?) a promising approach for file sharing, let's envolve! Happy sharing, Moak :) PS: Currently I'm working together with another computer nerd on a way to improve Gnutella behind firewalls/NAT-routers (open source). But seeing the stopping development (and statements from some client developers), I'm running out of motivation. |
Yes, this is a very good idea! Please think about this CycloCide! Morgwen |
Re: General Gnutella Developers Quote:
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/forumd...?s=&forumid=42 |
thx! PS: I like the forum ID :) |
Yes! Its about freakin time!!! |
Don't cooperate with BS and LW Hi, it is unethical and unproductive to work with LW and BS. First they fool users with spyware. In lack of a finance concept they bundle 3rd party code, which will spy out hundreds and thousands of newbies users. As a developer inside gnutella, you do indirect support spyware or use work that is financed with spyware, I do not feel comfortable with that in mind. Second, instead of a well documented and fair discussed protocol, I see more and more chaotic additions to the protocol (on purpose?). Good for proprietary companies or closed minded thinking, b/c it will keep away competitors, very bad for an open protocol and supporting new developers. Third, BS (Vinnie alias Freepeers) is well known for a rude and proprietary thinking. Stubborn, trying to control or dominate develop- ment. Last of his achievment is blocking 0.4 clients without any real technical reason, another step forward to split BS from Gnutella. Fourth, marketing phrases in Gnutella. Isn't it a joke to claim a v0.6 support in servents? The current v0.6 is just v0.4 protocol + a new handhake + undocumented chaos + heavy construction site. What happened to the name of v0.5, wasn't it good enough? Also it's a joke to spread that all reliable servents have to have 'ultrapeer' (superpeer wasn't good enough?). Currently, ultragigahyperpeers from LW are in heavy construction, not reliable. Of course, dynamic traffic routing and dynamic network structure is our future (as we know from FastTrack and eDonkey)... it is just a shame that everyone is allready speaking about LW's 'ultrapeers' is the new hype without having it working today? A parallel implementation of a new superpeer concept, traffic routing and new descriptors could become necesarry, less marketing plz, more innovations. Fifth, LW's and BS's loud marketing is unfair against other developers and more reliable servents. Just because thay claim to have the best or most powerful servent, they do not have it. Unfourtunatley this loud "we are better then the others" marketing works and I see LW and BS are often reported as a reference for Gnutella. As a contrast the users choice is not BS or LW. [Update] Sixth, LW and BS slightly/secretly seperate from the general Gnutella network, each of them prefering their own servents over other servents and running hostcaches which do provide connections to their own servents only. Another step towards taking over a bigger userbase and then splitting up the network to a single vendor controlled network, instead of an united Gnutella community with a variety of good clients. [/Update] Free Gnutella developers think about it. I recommend not to work together with LW and BS anymore in the current way: It is unethical, unefficient, slows innovations, less fun and Gnutella suffers. Instead Gnutella needs a briefly documented protocol (RFC), free of proprietary thinking, marketing, spyware and egoism. Fair cooperation and communication is the key. Thx for listening. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/6054, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/6299 |
You are right that complex things like full XML and other strange things make it hard for the small developer to keep up. Limewire has a team of 5 or more working on this full time and getting their bills paid. Kazza pays $4000 a month for a license fee, where the hell do they get that sort of cash? What laws are they bending? I don't think it's "unethical and unproductive" to work with them, its my choice. Greg of LW is a good front man for PR. Vinnie should take note and hire some 16 yr old for cheap to do his PR, it would be better than what he has been doing. I know how frustrating this can be, just quit reading the_gdf for a week and you will feel better. Nothing happens there anyway, if a "big" client wants to do something they just will, screw what you have to say. "well documented and fair discussed protocol" depends on what "RAM" does with his documentation project and so far it only copied what was there. LW and or BS should contribute some $$ towards this. "Third, BS (Vinnie alias Freepeers) is well known for a rude and proprietary thinking. Stubborn...." and this is news? We all know this. "Isn't it a joke to claim a v0.6 support in servents?" don't knock the only thing that a the_gdf agreed to as a group in what 1 year now? the_gdf produces nothing but does keep people thinking someone is listening. "Fifth, LW's and BS's loud marketing is unfair against other developers and more reliable servents" anything not running on windows is the better client due to the underlying OS bugs. What you need to do is take your gnutella code, rename the connect strings, add some ssh encryption, set up some illegal MP3 computers with 60GB full of MP3's and fake many IP's to show how well it works, and sell it to some idiots that will pay $4000 a month to you like kazza and morph did. Some marketing genius pulled a fast one on them! |
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The spyware is the unethical aspect here, not that they try to earn money! Morgwen |
using anything [including spyware] to fund proprietary development of a public/open standard is pretty bad... but the network is also used to share copyrighted material. LW and BS are bad if they are making //profit// If they want to earn cash and pay the content holders - making profit for themselves and the media owner.... they need to make everything open. It's ethically wrong to collect money on another's misfortune [??AA] ... especially when that misfortune based on another's work [ Nullsoft, et. al. ] LW and BS can create super clients but they can't take from the network and not provide. It can't stand. Smarter searching, connections and downloads is wanted by all; but at what cost. Don't work with these clients and don't line their pockets if they will only take the work and walk away when things get rough. A business model must be discussed, maybe competing clients... but for pay clients can't use //free// bandwidth. They can't exclude a //free// servlet if they are using //free// servlet's bandwidth etc. My vision is faster PC's and spare bandwidth go to provide better communications on the network. |
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They are not bad beacause they want to make profit they are bad because they do it with spyware! And what is your point with the copyrighted material? Not all people share "illegal"... Will you tell us because many users are doing so we now must accept this? Will you tell us if somebody kills a man its OK when an other do the same? Yes of course we are sharers, we have to accept spyware viruses etc.! :rolleyes: I think the risc of getting caught is more than enough! Yes our risc, our files! Not Limewire or bearshares... quote: LW and BS can create super clients but they can't take from the network and not provide. It can't stand. Who said this? You know what Limewire and bearshare are doing? http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=8782 If they want to earn money with their product they should respect all other clients too! The most donīt want to earn money! And I think they are far away from the "SUPER" client! Morgwen |
then quite bitching and just dont use them. I think BS is the best client out there. I have tried all of the win clients and BS works best for me. I just uncheck the spyware if I dont want it. All I do is see people complain here. I challenge you to make a better client!!! One that offers superpeers, filehashes, partial file sharing (with hash trees), swarmed dl, support for GGEP with +,-,"", ect, ect, ect.... Until you guys actually write a superior client all you are doing is bitching. BS actually has something to offer. Vinnie may not be the best communicator but he has a great client. |
telling the truth is not bitching. if BS and LW doing bad things, it's not the answer to close both eyes. superpeers, filehash etc are not invented from BS. |
do something productive!!! I didnt say they invented them. But they have them or are working on them at a faster pace then anyone else. What are they doing that is bad? They are building this network. Instead of complaining all the time they are writing code. More then I can say for the crowd here! Unless you have some evidence that they are doing something bad all you are doing is bitching. The network is still interconnected, they are just clumping their clients together. So f**king what? I still challenge everyone here who cant stop complaining to write a better client. There are quite a few of you. Work together to do something besides troll the gnutella forums. Start from scratch or help with a project like gnucleus. Just do something productive! |
They wasnīt the first with multi-segment downloads either! The first was Xolox a non-commercial client!!! And the most users think not that bearshare is the best - look at the poll here and zeropaid! Multi-segment-download is meanwhile standard, only Vinnie wasnīt able to provide a version with it (the version 2.5 is still a beta!)... AFAIK bearshare has no superpeers yet! Also the idea of their sha1 hashes is from a "PUBLIC" source! Morgwen |
once again, do something productive!! Im not saying who came up with the ideas. I really dont care. I just want them implemented. Yes, 2.5 is still in beta. Why are they behind on multisource? Because they included HUGE first. In my opinion a better choice as it will be more powerfull in the long run. Xolox was good, it kicked some of the other developers in the butt. But now it is dead, no longer in development!! To bad they didnt/wont release the source. Plus I hated the GUI. Not the point. I dont care which is the most popular, I just told you what I use. BTW, how scientific do you think zp.com's survey is? Most BS users never go to the site. I rarely do but I never voted. The only people that go there are the ant-BS crowd, so of course they wouldnt choose BS. BS already has 3.0 code ready to enter testing as soon as 2.5 is shipped. once again, do something productive!! |
Re: once again, do something productive!! Quote:
Yes I think it is because there are always two sides - I want fair play and not more Limewire/bearshare clients which donīt care about the user or other clients! Yes this is "MY" intention! I want one community - not three seperated communities... but the first step is working together and "fair play", I really donīt see fair play from bearshare or Limewire I see only more spyware, hiring more developers and than praying how good they are! This can do "EVERY" developer, but the most of them are fair and want only to code a good client! Morgwen |
Re: Re: once again, do something productive!! Quote:
When you want to be #1 and dominate the gnutella world, then your attitude changes to one of doing anything you can to provide your users with downloads, cause all they want to do is suck the net and the #1 clients sucks the best. No regard to whatthey will do to the net in the long term, or what bandwidth they suck as long as the $$$ flow in. |
Re: Re: Re: once again, do something productive!! Quote:
:) |
Re: Don't cooperate with BS and LW Hi, I come with an appology and a goodbye. First I would like to apology for my behaviour of crying out my fears instead of searching for a diplomatic conversation. Sorry, my post/email was a "cryout" of some upcoming problems and collected opinions from the gnutella development community. It's also a "goodbye" because I withdraw dissapointed from Gnutella development. Your answers (those from other developers) did confirm my feelings. Well, my very personal point of view is that current Gnutella development has a lack of documentation and structures attracting more coders and network/protocol specialists. As a matter of fact development is slow, chaotic for newcomers. In the past I tried to help and work out solutions. But I see less improvement and I'm not willing to spend my time anymore while vendors (BS and perhaps also LW) turning Gnutella into a single/few vendors network where servents and decisions are not equal and not for the sake of a common community. For example, clumping together clients of a single vendor and infecting hundreds and thousands of newbie users with persistant spyware ... that's not my idea of Gnutella! Actually I don't want you to stop to cooperate with BS/LW. I wanted to wake up some developers and make them think about how things are done today and if you are satisfied? What I don't want is to hold you back from productivity, improvememts and working together on Gnutella. To be fair, LW does contribute valueable ideas and papers, yeah! I can speak only about me, I do not feel comfortable how things are done generally, e.g. the take-this-or-die behaviour. But it seems on the GDF everyone is pretty lucky whith each other. Are you suprised if more ppl do not want to be part of the GDF? I would like to suggest to work on a well defined protocol documentation (RFC), free of proprietray interests. Market shares and marketing should not be allowed to influence an open protocol design, because such descisions are contraproductive in a long term. It would be great to see in a few months Gnutella having superpeers, dynamic traffic routing, hashs, metadata, chat and (friendly) anti-freeloading behaviour. FastTrack and eDonkey are still a great source of inspiration IMHO. However, thx for the fun and the possibility of learning about P2P. Greets and good luck with your work, Moak PS: If someone would like to communicate about alternatives, how about meeting on friday afternoon/night (23:00 GMT/UTC, 17:00 CST) on IRC #gnutelladev on IRCnet? A description is available on http://www.gnutellaforums.com and usually some known faces are arround. |
Moak, use your talents to help us all get rid of the commercial interests and greed on gnutella. Don't give up now! Post code and patches that don't contribute to their clients. Make your own client that helps people move away from those clusters. Post code that helps other clients move away from clustering. Vinnie thinks he can do this, but he doesn't understand we code way better than he does. And think about that, it's mostly vinnie doing this, he always does this and has been trying to do this since day one. We got a lucky break when morph made a open source client #1, vinnie can now go suck eggs. We all used to have to walk on egg shells around him because if he did something nasty (like clustering) we would all be affected by it. NO MORE! We are just about free of vinnie and the like! Start your own documentation center and make it the best. RAM is doing a crappy job with his documentation project, please start one and run it for us we need it and someone who cares about docs. Also remember the small developer doesn't have the time or resources to add all these new protocol ideas all the time so they will pick the best and go with it. It can take a small developer more then 6 months to get something working. If generic TESTED source code was always available that anyone could use and just plug into their client, and not just some proposal on paper that would help. If the people making proposals would do the work and find out how hard it is to code this stuff, maybe more real gnutella features would be added. Use your talent to create these proposals with source code. Sourceforge is free and will host your projects, go check it out. |
isnt it ironic First, I would like to point out they irony and hypocracy of the people that are against clustering and servent blocking are writing code to drop clients and block then from downloading. Note, I havent seen code to prevent uploading from these clients (you leeches). Moak, if you want change make it. Not by bashing the other clients but by providing something better. Organize the group of people here that are so frustrated with gnutella to do something besides bitch about it. Write a new client or help with an existing one like gnucleus. Yes, the GDF can be frustrating, but its all there is right now. If you want something better quite demanding that others give it to you and DO IT YOURSELF!!! |
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Im not trying to push anything on anyone. Personaly I love how well things are coming with gnutella. Downloads are finally working, searches are great, ect. All I am saying is that if you dont like what is going on actually do something besides complain. Help with the documentation or help with a client. If you dont like spyware use a different client. Gnucleus is a great open source client. |
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If "NOT" donīt tell us what we have to do! Morgwen P.S.: What do you do besides complaining? |
Gnutellafan, it's easy to judge about other and give advices, but what have you done? Somtimes it's better to leave the old path and start something new and better. |
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Morgwen |
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NOPs are so fun. |
$4000/mo. for a FastTrack license? Are you NUTS? Someone mentioned that KaZaa pays $4000/mo. for a license, then asked where they come up with that kind of money. helllloooo. wake UP. if a FastTrack license was only $4K/Mo. everyone and their dog would be running a fasttrack client. "where do they get that kind of money?" do you have any idea how much each user is worth? Let's take the old Morpheus for an example- they didn't even bundle "spyware"- they only displayed banner ads. I've read that morpheus of old served over 6Billion ad impressions to date. Ok. They can sell those impressions for at least 50 cents/thousand. You do the math. thats million$ right there. KaZaa gets about 15-25 cents for every user that installs them and their spyware (I'm in the industry, I know btw). Think about that over 20 million or so users. $4000 a month? You've got to be joking. You can make $4K a month on the Net with about 1/100th of the users KaZaa pulls in. KaZaa makes more like $4 Million a month. sheesh |
Re: $4000/mo. for a FastTrack license? Are you NUTS? Quote:
Morgwen |
So take Gnucleus source code, munge it around a bit so no one knows that you are using it, compile the exe file and start your own network. Never ever give out the source code so no one knows where you got it from, sort of like BearShare does. I would be happy with $200 a month. Anyone want to advertise on my new network? |
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Morgwen P.S.: You post a lot, you should register! ;) |
Developers, don't miss OpenSource P2P Debate http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9888 |
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