Can Gnutella Be Trusted?
 

I have been reasearching the most of the major P2P software out there and I have found that (in the simplest terms I can think of) the developers of LimeWire, Kazaa, Morpheus, and Bearshare are lying, cheating assholes. This does not apply to every developer and I do believe that some really do mean to bring the best P2P software to the public. But some people just want to take advantage of helpless people. Sure you may be able to download your files but is that all you are really downloading? Hell no! Without the right software, your computer will become overrun with spyware, adware and every other type of crapware meant to exploit you and your privacy. In this world there are very limited precautions you can take to defend against this type of thing. Thats all the ranting I have for now, but I think that it is sad how people try to find every possible way to decieve people. For the most part I feel that nobody can really be trusted.

deepblue

This post is not meant ot be offending to the developers of the mentioned software. I know that you have spent a lot money and time developing these programs. This is simply my personal opinion.

deepblue

I've done some research and have come to the conclusion that deepblue is a huge fan of America and wants George W Bush to be re-elected.

Actually no, I think that bush is a liar, a thief, and a terrorist. I am simply looking through the sheet that has been pulled over our eyes, and seeing the real world, instead of living in the pretend.
Up with anarchy, sberlin.


deepblue

Re: Can Gnutella Be Trusted?
 

I wouldn´t say that they are assholes, but their "truth" is different from my truth... I can write a whole book about it.

Morgwen

I'm sorry the words are a little strong, but that was the only way to express how I felt about the subject. Thank you for your input.

deepblue

As 'scummy' software categories go P2P packages are particularly bad, yup. Of course there are other similar problematic areas - web browsers, personal finance packages and anti-virus software are others that come to mind.

Time and time again it's been shown that the best (although by no-means sure) defence against finding unwelcome functionality(viruses, trojans or bugs) in software you buy is the open-source model. While you personally might not have the time or skill to read the source code of an application and search for them, the fact that it's published at least opens up the possibility that someone might. In fact in a world as large as the Internet, someone's bound to sooner or later.

This is why I and I'm sure others prefer firstly gnutella to other P2P schemes, and in particular LimeWire to some of its gnutella competitors. And yes, an open-source web-browser, personal finance package and anti-virus tool also ;)

Re:
 

I am doing everything I can to defend against this. I have PestPatrol and Norton Anti-Virus, and a firewall. Once again all input is appreciated.

deepblue

Mes 2 cents
 

I use Gnutella because it is open source.
I use LimeWire because it is open source.
This means that I trust Gnutella the protocol. But it doesn't mean that I trust LimeWire (recent apparition of Limeshop on osx etc...). Spyware is what pop-up windows were two years ago. Spyware serve to take money from you as popup windows takes time from you to close them. (and if time equals money they are in the same class to me). To fight the popup windows I began using browser killing them (mozilla, safari etc..). To fight the spyware I use spybot on windows and process viewer on os x to indentify malacious add ons and trounce them. I guess the story tells only to be alertl, like everyone should be in every aspect in life. I don't mind the spyware if I can kill it, but some newbies pay for that and thats infortunate.

(I'm still a LW fan, because I admire their hard work and innovation protocol wise but I have to be vigilent and that should be a reflex for everybody.)

Re: Mes 2 cents
 

Maybe 10% of ALL users know what is going on...

Why I think Limewire and other "money making" developers aren´t trustable is because they deny all things which are discovered.

Do you remember the Limeshop/Topmoxie story?

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/3390.cfm

Adam Fisk confirmed that it is true that Topmoxie is redirecting links from other Websites (you can also call it stealing). My trust raised because I thought at least one developer is telling the truth. Now look what happened:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...e&pagenumber=3

All posts from afisk are deleted! This discussion started in the general Gnutella forum and I moved it over to the Limewire forum because it a LW related thread... a big fault. One of the mighty developer/mods censored this thread. So they know what they are doing (stealing money from other websites) and try to hide it - is this raising your trust?

I can tell long stories about Limewire and much longers about Bearshare and Vincent Falco and their Marketing concepts. You will find many of them here, some are now censored. :mad:

To make it short, I don´t trust nobody of this money making clients anymore, this time is over. I only use open source clients which are free of spyware/adware/stealware/crapware and which are free!!! ´

Morgwen

P.S.:
Gnutella is an open "protocol" not open source. ;)

Yes Morgwen, many still don't know and 90% is accurate. But people learn from errors and I'm sure the amount of money made over spyware is going down. And I really thing that putting spyware in LW or any other app is shooting themselves in their foot, because less people wil want to try these apps and less people will pay for a pro version for exemple. (this is really bad marketing from LW kazaa etc...)

For Morgwen:
And I use Gnutella (the protocol) because it is open source. ;)

Ciao

Some people learn from errors, many don´t know the spyware, the most people do not browse sharing forums (only if they have a problem, they ask get help and never come back). How should these people know about the "errors"? Also a problem is that people tend to forget...

I hope the money of spyware is going down.

btw is the PRO version using Limeshop? If so it would really suck because the user paid for a "clean" version and has now stealware on his computer.

NO, sure not... at the beginning I thought the same. The reality is the most people don´t know or don´t care about it. The people see only the BIG advertisements (which are paid with dirty money) from LW and Bearshare and their slogans we are the best. The truth is for every user they loose they have three or four new, yes you can make a lot of money with spyware and stealing...

I have to wonder how many people pay for LW, because there are "free" and "clean" versions out there, you can tell this to the users and they are still buying LW - perhaps they don´t believe its the same??? Many people don´t know what Gnutella is and that there are other clients, many users think "hey I paid for LW now I am allowed to download music" and they are claiming about the speed! They don´t realize that the music is coming from private users and not from BIG and FAST LW servers...

What I am trying to say is the most users don´t know enough about computers and Internet to see the risks and understand what is going on, they believe into the advertisement and pay for the clients... ah yes and the users are lazy - why should I try an other client when my client is running?

Believe me the people will pay!

Morgwen

That is my exact point, LW (and others) are stealing from those who don't know what is going on. They dont find out that paying for these things don't do any good until they've already spent a lot of money. Some developers really care, but most are greedy, stealing f**ks! Sad but true.

This world would be a much better place if people were honest wouldent it? Thank all of you for the input.

deepblue

FYI: TopMoxie has informed us that their software (branded as LimeShop) no longer changes the affiliate. That means that if someone goes to a website which has links marking them as the affiliate, they will stay the affiliate. It has been this way for quite awhile now.

LimeShop is not spyware. It does nothing nefarious. It merely reminds/asks LimeWire users to support LimeWire when they visit one of our select affiliate partners. That's all.

ok, i am one of the stupid ones out here, don't really know what you guys are talking about, but one question...what is the difference between LW (and i am assuming that LW stands for Limewire) and gnutella (sp)? i thought they were the same.

À iggeydog: Gnutella is an open protocol (i.e for searching) used by many applications (Bearshare, LW, GTK-Gnutella, Phex etc...), it is designed by all vendors there: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/ while Limewire is an open software that uses that protocol (user interface and many features) and is designed there http://www.limewire.org

À Sam Berlin: well, you should encourage users go pro to support your business, 95% of users don't want a tierce application that seek their web shopping habit and take 4% of processor when safari is open (limeshop on os x....). Plus I tracked your # of downloads on download.com and the number of dls (200 000 per week better than 100 000 per week just 6 months ago) is enough high to ensure profitability for a shareware with the crew size of LW. I won't tell you how to make business but I know that mac users will migrate to acqlite, acquisition and poisoned once LW ship 3.8 with limeshop. (it is already happening @ macnn.com http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?threadid=195695 and @ macupdate http://macupdate.com/info.php/id/6474). Please take that in consideration, you could even use the fact that there is no spyware on your site to get more users. The new way of forming a P2P is developpers listening to the users, not the P2P exploiting its users.

À bon entendeur,
Ciao

Yes right its stealware. Why don´t the users know that Limewishop redirect (or has redirected) links from other websites? Why did a mod edited Adam replies to that issue? Yes you want that the people support LW and what is whith the people who thought they are going to support a websites they like and Limewishop stole the link?

It doesn´t make things better that Limeshop isn´t redirecting the links anymore (at least not much), LW knew it from the beginning and you didn´t care... so you support stealing the links!

I alos remember this clicktillyouwin virus, LW knew there is a virus instead of removing the add at once they tried to find a fix for it, and meanwhile they spread this virus... so its OK what the third companies are doing as long as they pay?

btw are you an official LW employee or are you a co coder?

Morgwen

>LW knew it from the beginning and you didn´t care... so you support stealing the links!

As I recall, the moment the issue was brought to LimeWire's attention, we brought it to TopMoxie's attention and told them to fix it. After some development time (of them fixing it) they told us it was fixed.

>LW knew there is a virus instead of removing the add at once they tried to find a fix for it

I remember reading about the clicktilluwin problem, and it affected LOTS of companies. LimeWire removed the offending program as soon as it was identified as the cause.

>btw are you an official LW employee or are you a co coder?

You can see the employees at http://www.limewire.com/english/content/team.shtml , where you'll notice my name.

I was not with LimeWire for the above incidents, but I did actively read the message forums and watch related news, and I am well aware of the responses from both the developers and users.

sberlin = Sam Berlin
http://www.limewire.com/english/content/team.shtml

i am having an incredibly difficult time believing that there is soooooo much brainware behind LW and yet LW has so many problems. for the short time i could get LW up and running it would freeze my computer with the only option of force quitting and restarting. most of the time i couldn't get past "loading core components." i have finally given up and will look for other p2p software. p.s. i'm starting to wonder about some of our institutions of higher learning...and is the military better off now?

No its not true.

VTOLfreak was the first who mentioned this:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=7357

The only response was that he making false accusations...

THREE months later an other user brought it up again:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...e&pagenumber=1

At this moment Adam knew that Topmoxie was redirecting links. There was NO word about we told Topmoxie to remove it or something else - INSTEAED he replied something like, its a good solution to pay the bills instead of asking money from the users. And I am sure that it doesn´t need three months to remove a few lines of code. Yes Limewire supported stealing!

And I really wonder why one of you deleted his replies? What do you want to hide? Do you really think the "old" members don´t remember this discussion?

btw did you check if Topmoxie is actually redirecting links or do you believe Topmoxie? I mean LW told us more than one time that they work ONLY with trusted companies, so if you trust them its your fault with stealing the links and with the virus. You have to check it before you release it under your name and tell your user that they could trust it!!!

I also remember that Limewire installed third party stuff and didn´t mention that after you unistall LW the third party stuff stays on your computer. I asked Adam via PM that he should AT LEAST inform the user about it and he promised this to me, nothing happens... I don´t know how its now because I am not going to install LW again...

My memory is different but for this point I have no proofs...

Like me, but it seems that you forget some details...:rolleyes:

You know the truth and are denying it like the other developers, so why should I trust you now?

Morgwen

There was never a question about whether or not TopMoxie was changing URLs (to my knowledge, it's not really redirecting any links, it just modifies the HTTP requests) to let LimeWire make money when LimeWire users are shopping online. I don't know if you are aware of the way Amazon for example rewards sites sending people to their website. Basically, if a person buys something at Amazon, Amazon will pay the website who redirected the person to Amazon. If nobody redirected that user to Amazon, Amazon will just keep the money.
The only issue was that TopMoxie did not value the case were another website already claimed that reward for itself so TopMoxie would really steal that reward.
That issue was brought to TopMoxie's attention and it was resolved. LimeWire has no direct control over the TopMoxie sources, they only have an agreement with TopMoxie about what the TopMoxie software may or may not do and how LimeWire will be paid - at least that's the way it usually works.
So in fact LimeWire never could modify any code at all to change the situation.

What do you expect?? We are living in a world where you can either make money or starve. LimeWire is a company after all and there could be certain legal implications involved depending on what statements an employee of a company makes. And even if there weren't, - it still is bad publicity.

It's not about believing or not believing. Two parties have a legal agreement, if one party fails to fulfill it, it can and will be held liable for it.

TopMoxie is per definition not a virus - at least not where I'm living which is outside of cloud cuckoo land. If I license a piece of software and resell it, I cannot always test it to the full. I can only trust that the creator of that software is telling the truth about what his software is doing, even IF the source code WAS available for me to check. If the creator of the software lied about his product, he would have to fear that I may sue him.

People should really start reading the license agreements before downloading and installing software from the internet. If the license agreements states that another software package will be installed this implies that it will not necessarily be removed in cumolo (since it is not part of the same software package).

LimeWire basic displays a page before installing that it will install LimeShop and tells you to view this page if you have any questions:
http://www.limewire.com/english/content/moxiefaq.shtml
In addition, you have to agree to the TopMoxie License Agreements. The LimeWire international installer does not display this information because it does not install TopMoxie and never did.

Truth is relative. What the truth is in the real world, may not be the truth in some distant cloud cuckoo land for example where some words like 'virus' or 'spyware' just have a different meaning.

- And just to clarify: it is not, was not and will never be my intention to imply you were living in such a "cloud cuckoo land".

fixed bad english

If Topmoxie is redirecting or just modify the HTTP requests doesn´t matter - stealing is stealing!

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/3390.cfm

What I expect? I expect in a free forum that NOBODY is censoring, perhaps you didn´t realize that this is www.gnutellaforums.com and not www.limewire.com - do you see a difference here?

This isn´t so easy. The users have no agreement with Topmoxie or other companies ONLY Limewire. The users have only an agreement with Limewire - so Limewire is the one who have to assure me that Topmoxie and other companies don´t spread viruses or steal links. They are guilty for it as long as they bundle the software within their installer. I know you will tell me now something about the license agreement... bla, bla... do you really think that everybody who is using Limeiwre is a lawyer and can understand all the things?

Who said that Topmoxie is a virus? I was referring to the clicktillyouwin virus, you should follow the discussion before you quote small parts of it.

No its not. Truth is what the people believe and not what the developers want the people should believe. At least this is what counts...

Thats why Limewire should mention which software stays on the computer and how I could uninstall it. This is what the user can expect from every program which is paid by ads, after unistalling LW there is no need to "pay" for it!

Morgwen

Spybot Search & Destroy
 

Before you run any of these programs scan with Spybot and Norton to see whats up in there. hopefully you catch the spies Trojans etc.:D

I have assessed my options, JJJBBB. I have Norton Anti-Virus, and PestPatrol. But thank you for your suggstions.

deepblue

Nope. Doesn't matter who's hosting the forum. If it's the official LimeWire forum, it's normal that the LimeWire people have the say and won't let some zealots cramp their style.

Actually LimeWire users installing the LimeWire version containing TopMoxie have to agree to the TopMoxie license agreements, it even says "TopMoxie" at the top of those license agreements. So the users DO have an agreement with TopMoxie. -> Ergo read them license agreements...

Are you trying to argue legally or ethically??? Legally it is the user's duty to ensure he understands the license agreement. If you are arguing that LimeWire's action were ethically wrong, then I have to say, I don't agree and that's where the discussion ends. Except for the issue with TopMoxie replacing already existing affiliate cookies there was no harm done. This issue has been resolved as soon as it was known and it was not malicious intent but just carelessness on the side of TopMoxie's developers.

Which wasn't a virus either.
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_virus
Btw., it was never proven that it was really malicious.

Common belief has nothing to do with truth. Even Einstein made the one or the other famous comment on the stupidity of "the people". Also, don't make the mistake to confuse your beliefs with the beliefs of the people. People don't care, - for proof see the success of companies like TopMoxie.

You don´t get. The Limewire user didn´t realize that he is making an agreement with an other company. Look how many people here post in the wrong forums because they don´t read the title...

Funny is that they edited only their replies... hmm... why they do this? I think Adam said to much unwanted things - the truth? Such things proof that you can´t trust companies who are trying to hide such things!

Legally? So he has to go to the lawyer first? What do you think if all users would do this? How many money would Limewire earn then?

It is ethically wrong, because LW is depending of these people - the people DON´T need LW they can easily switch to an other client. And I really do not care if you agree or not...

The common believe is the truth... who decides what truth is? You? Me? No the common believe, nobody said that common believe is right!

This is exatly my point. The companies like TopMoxie and Limewire are earning money with the "stupidity of the people" - if the people would realize whats going gone there wouldn´t be such companies like Limewire or TopMoxie the people would switch to an other client!

So for me this discussion is over. Its normal that you defend LW you are a co-coder so I wasn´t really surprised...

Morgwen

deepblue,

I realize that all men can not be trusted (without it being earned), it is in humanity's nature to lie, steal, cheat and cause all sorts of other, trouble. But you are making some very strong remarks about a man you do not know. Nor can you prove your statements about the president. Therefore I suggest you book the next available flight to France. I think that you might like their socialistic way of life better.

But please, as soon as you can prove any part of what you have accused the prez of; do share with the rest of us. Then we will take the steps that need to be taken, you know, like we did with Bill.

Remember to smile today. :-)

One does hate to get political on a technical forum, particularly in purported defense of someone of ... enthusiastic ... views. However, those who dislike GWB will find themselves at home not only in France but pretty much all of the world outside of the US right now. He's a rather despised man for his foreign policy decisions. The best that can be said of him is that he's united a large number of formerly disparate nations and communities in that they all have a common hate-figure now.

As for liar, thief and terrorist I agree only someone with access to a magical fact machine could tell, but one thing he's definately not is popular.

I don´t know where you live. Here in Germany we see almost daily in TV that Bush is one of the biggest liars that exist (perhaps only the German goverment is lying more).

He planned the war BEFORE 11.09., he needed only a bad exuse to attack the Iraq... where are the weapons which exist only in his dreams?

Morgwen

True Blue,
Do you think that bush has done nothing wrong? You ask for proof that he is a liar and a thief? OPEN YOUR EYES! This kind of this thing has been going on since the beginning of this country. The most recent of cource in Iraq. We know no more than what the conservative news reports tell us right? Obviously you do. The president makes a big deal about loseing 200 of our citizens (in a completly pointless war), but who gives a f u c k about the thousands of Iraqi'swe have killed. We see every day that in other countries people are killing americans because they hate us, and we ask 'why do they want to kill us,why do they hate us'. The answer is there if you would use you eyes for once. But I really know what this has to do with the legitmacy of gnutella clients, which is what this thread is about.

deepblue

Thanks Peerless. True Blue: check out the hyperlink, you'll find it interesting and heres your PROOF. Please, no more political discussion in thread. That is not its intended purpose. Thankyou.

deepblue

Yes I agree that Saddam did need to be 'releaved of his power'. However I think that bush could have gone about doing that in a much different way. HaHa, what!? Thanks for your input.

deepblue

Yeah...
I 'moved' this thread...
It needed moving a while ago !

For 'new users' there should be a warning label at the start of this thread...

Beware.
This read contains frequent displays of
personal prejudice,
miscellaneous nonsense,
numerous erroneous conclusions
and a whole lot of political blathering !

:p

The comments made in reference to BearShare and Limewire are
totally inappropriate.

Beating About The Bushes (& 'Friends')
 

Have a little look

HERE

and

Here for a little more info.

Get acquainted with the 'boys'. ;)

Many countries and corporations wish to see petroleum products and services priced in Euros... Not U$Dollars.

It is quite simple to go back through the histories of other country's political/economic agendas... Publically stated.
Those who were clearly moving towards Euro pricing are now on a definite s++t list.
Check it out.
There is no greater threat today to the 'USA System' than the dollar being replaced by the Euro as the sole currency for conducting such transactions.

Beats the actual reasons used to justify the affair of what people call 'Viet Nam'.

Same "bad-guys", though.
Same modus operandi
Same blind idiots accepting and believing...

Most people seem to be able to grasp the concept and reality of the so-called underworld - 'organized crime' and stuff...

They DO NOT want to accept that there is also an overworld...
The REAL crooks who ALSO get to play with the laws, primarily in order to protect and maintain their position and secure an unfair advantage over others.

Like medieval princes, hmmm ?
Lords and serfs...

Sure has been a lot of progress since then, huh...
There are fewer princes now... And, a hell of a lot more dumb serfs.

Let the pageant continue !
Summon deepblue for the next joust !

Busy, busy, busy as the great Bokonin might say

Looking Here will give you some clues...

Be sure to read the stuff down at the bottom... especially the dates...
;)

As much as I would like to take part in the flame-fight that I'm sure is in the near future of this thread, I don't think that Morgwen believes in second chances (you know what I'm talking about). I'll be checking this thread regularly though. And for those of you who feel like a good joust, feel free to PM me:D

deepblue