Should we be hard on the LW developers?
 

I've divided my answer into two parts (1) the situation of the developers and (2) Is Limewire a worthy product?

PART I
=====

THE BASICS:

1) Limewire has a team of professional programmers working full-time on Limewire supported by other volunteer developers.

2) They charge for a Spam/Spyware-free version of the software.
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=6423
(just in case you doubt that Limewire has ever been bundled with Spyware)

3) There are many clean Gnutella clients downloadable free of charge with no spam or spyware:
http://www.unitethecows.com/
http://www.zeropaid.com/

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

a) That they have a lot of competition and any disappointed users can simply switch client in a few minutes at no personal cost.

b) The fact that they have chosen a commercial model gives the paying users a right to be demanding and [constructively] critical with bug reports and update requests during the six-month period of subscription. This is, in effect, a contract where Limewire , on receiving payment, agrees to provide a service to the customer during this period. Of course, as no specific conditions are mentioned, it is up to the customer to decide whether it meets his or her expectations or not.
More importantly in the long-term, LW has to convince Pro users to renew their subscriptions at the end of the six months.

PART II
=====

IS LIMEWIRE A WORTHY PRODUCT?

I won't go into details as these are covered in other threads but, in general Limewire has made reasonable progress with core issues like Resume Download and recent versions do seem to find hosts quicker and have more stable connections. I am a bit suspicious about very frequent 'third number' updates with only cosmetic changes, though. In general, it seems to do what it should - ie. search for and download files. Its limitations compare favourably with other Gnutella clients I have tried.

The main downside seems to be lack of quality information:

1) There is no version history on the update page, with the installer or on this forum (see this thread).

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...threadid=11418

2) There doesn't seem to be a clear development plan (to do list). They vaguely mention some plans in posts on the 'What feature would YOU like?' thread

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=7199

but only in answer to specific questions and, since there is no update log, we often don't know which of these ideas are being implemented. Other repeated requests they don't even respond to like the version history thread mentioned above (a week to date).

3) The influence of Java implementation and how it limits Limewire are not made clear (Windows/Linux has JRE 1.4, Mac OSX has 1.3.1, Mac OS9 has 1.1.8). This is a common source of confusion.

4) Similarly the progression of the Gnutella protocol and its relationship to the development of Limewire should be explained (in an FAQ).

5) The FAQ's are not very helpful and are not updated to deal with recent issues.

CONCLUSION
=========

As a Mac user my choice of clients was limited. I tried LW, Mactella, Carracho, eDonkey and Hotline. Limewire worked best (some didn't work at all). I liked the idea of a professionally developed client and I decided to pay. There have been a few reasonable updates since then. However, I don't feel we (the users) are being properly informed about ongoing development and about the overall policy of Limewire. Perhaps the common commercial syndrome of rolling out loads of minor updates to make users think they're getting their money's worth could be an influence.

I've also read X-files-esque conspiracy theories by Moak and others about Spyware, the LW/BS Masterplan etc.

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...0&pagenumber=5

and, while I take them with a pinch of salt, they do concern me. Nothing is clear cut: Users want everything for free and programmers want to be paid. Commercialism corrupts but altruism (while commendable) is tiring and doesn't pay bills. Do they want to rule Gnutella or are they working for the good of the Gnutella Community? All the more reason to probe them every step of the way until they clarify things!

What do you think?

> /dev/null

Re: Should we be hard on the LW developers?
 

And here is why:

But you get the source code for free.

Including the LimeWire source code.


I wish they'd do that instead of flooding this forum.

No, it doesn't. It gives you the right to download a pre-compiled version of LimeWire without ads and bundled software and receive updates for six months.

Hey, receiving updates and eMail support is a service.


Bug fixes.

Yes, actually there is. For each major releasy every new feature is posted in the LimeWire Beta Forum. The thread is sticky so you shouldn't have problems finding it.

Join the mailing lists at www.limewire.org. Most of the users don't really care about fancy unreleased features that might come some time in the future. For the next version LW is working on initial HTTP11 downloading support, browsing hosts, hashing, URIs and alternate location support.

You will be informed in the LimeWire Beta Forum.

They probably didn't even read your postings. As you might imagine they are quite busy and they stated more than once (in this forums) that they can't communicate with their users as frequently as they would like to.

No it's not. If you are interested in learning something about the different JREs go to http://java.sun.com but don't expect the developers to explain you the differences between the JREs.

Why? I don't remember reading questions on this topic being asked frequently.

That's why this forum exists. The people here will help you if they can.

I can assure you, LW updates are not about creating that impression with the users.

Moak suffers from a serious mental handicap, he's paranoid.

I don't know a single programmer that doesn't aim to reach world domination by writing software. If LimeWire wanted to "rule" gnutella, they'd do so by writing the best client available.

I can understand you would like more communication with the developers but I hope you can understand, that they don't have time two answer postings in this forum frequently. However after a major release they tend to visit this forum more often, so if you have questions about new features / development plans, ask them in the sticky threads for the latest release in the LimeWire beta forum.

And stop bitching.

I think limewire is the most stable (on mac os X) than it's ever been (since 1.7). The ability to download from multiple clients simultaneously is great. I have to say, it has major problems with transparancy -- os X folder graphics (and functionality) "mix" with limewire in strange ways.

I really would like to see what the changes are when I download a new version, as well as a "planned features" list. Some posts in a beta-terster forum don't really satisfy that fairly common-sense notification.


Taliban, you may not personally care about spyware and other bundled software, however a lot of people do. I care, mostly in principle, when things are installed on my system without my knowledge and perform actions the functions of which I don't know (how's that for net grammar).

Free LimeWire still uses topmoxie and cydoor, and does so without an opt-out.

If you don't know yet, when you go to a LimeWire affiliate website, TopMoxie slightly changes your browser's URL so that the affiliate knows that Limewire referred you there. Then if you buy something, limewire gets a cut of the money. This is fine if you got to the affiliate by clicking on one of the ad-banners or on the links in the LimeShop section of the LimeWire website.

However if you happen to visit an affiliate site on your own, limewire still gets the referral (even though they didn't really refer you).

Also if you get to an affiliate by clicking on some other site's ad banner, limewire gets the credit (and money) rather than the actual referrer.

That's not very nice. I still think LimeWire should get some permanent sponsors to cover their developers' salaries. Either that or develop a reasonably stable and fast client, then back off the development.

blah, blah, blah, spyware here, adware there, I need popups with changelogs, this ain't fair, that ain't fair - did I miss something or is this now the official bitching-about-limewire-but-too-lame-to-get-another-client-let-alone-access-the-limewire-souce-code thread?

That might work pretty well on some alien planet, but your weak link is - THIS IS EARTH!

What's wrong with you? Didn't your parents spank you enough when you were a kid? Go away!

Hey hey, taliban...
 

:( Aren't you getting a wee bit "prickly" (even so, you're cute, so I forgive)? Anyhow, I do think it's healthy to be critical about the way things are going on. There's no need to be abusive (which we see occasionally in this forum as well), but posts like this one, I think, is quite helpful.

Demands, complaints, suggestions, comments, bitching(!), call it whatever you want, trust me, these do help in a long run (short run too).

Oh, and about the "right" to make demands; whether you like it or not, everyone has the right to complain, demand, or whatever you call it. If you've paid for it, I think you also have the right to be "heard".

But I must agree with you in that some of the posts on these forums ARE repetitive, redundant, and contributing very little. I share your feeling that this place is "flooded". Whatever you want to post, you should make it a habit to read other threads, using "search" functions needless to mention.

Smile, Taliban, smile.:p

Thankyou for brightening my day with your considered opinion Taliban :) The technique of a list of quotes followed by a curt, disparaging comment always amuses me. I have a few more points to make, though:

1. I am not "bitching" as I quite clearly stated that Limewire is the best client I have tried for Mac. In fact, I made several constructive suggestions which you or others may or may not agree with as is your privilege. I assure you that I regularly try other clients and that I will switch if I find a better one. Until then, I'll continue giving my opinion about Limewire and the way it is managed.

2. Flooding comes from irrelevant posts , repeated posts on the same subject and flame-wars that end up creating a thread so long that it's impossible to follow. I don't think my post falls into any of those categories (though I'm sure you'll find a way to disagree). Do any of yours?

3. I believe that any person who pays for a product or service has a right to give feedback or constructive criticism. Of course, the LW developers are busy and have no obligation to take all of these ideas into account. However, they would be well advised to consider repeated requests on the same subject.

4. Does a tiny bug fix that you might not even notice warrant downloading a new version? Yes, you can go to the forum to see the feature list but this information is not always helpful. It should be included on the update page and include platform specific issues. Other users have posted on this point - most recently:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...threadid=11422

5. If I have any specific doubt which is not covered in the forums, I ,as a paying user, can send PMs or e-mails to the developers. I can also join the Limewire mailing list as you said. In that sense there are no communication problems. But to find and understand specific information on this forum or Limewire pages takes (a) a lot of patience and (b) a degree of technical knowlege, which is why I made the point about an up-to-date FAQ. This would save a lot of time in the long-run by answering a lot of simple questions that otherwise end up 'flooding' the forum or being sent as PMs or e-mails to the developers or other members.

6. I have seen many posts recently relating to mouse wheel support and Cut & Paste, which (I now know) are Java issues. So a lot of users are confused about this point. All the developers would need to do is write a couple of lines in a read me file , for example: "Mac OSX - JRE 1.3.1 - no mouse wheel support or cut & paste." - not too demanding. Again, this would save 'flooding' caused by repeated questions on the forum in the medium-term. Asking a non-programmer to look at the JRE feature list on Sun's page and relate this to Limewire is unrealistic.

7. I think debates like Spyware/Adware are a valuable part of the forum. I have seen many people post that they have switched to other clients because of this issue - so it's something the developers need to be aware of. I agree with you that Moak seems slightly paranoid, and I said in my original post that I take what he says with a pinch of salt - that doesn't mean that everything he says is completely unfounded, though.

Taliban what is your problem? The only person whining on this thread is you. The only person insulting people on this thread is you.

The Earth that I know has TV programs with 25% advertising, has sports players decked out in logos, has billboards all over the place, has full page glossy ads in every magazine, and every American gets hundreds of junk mail coupons and advertisements, as well as hundreds of spam emails every month.

I don't think it would be a problem for Limewire to convince advertisers to pay for sponsorship in a viewership of millions of hits a month of 14 - 35 year olds.

Also I have heard it said that Limewire is more of a side project for these developers, so I think it is reasonable for them to get some sort of high-quality product out there and stop development for a while.

Do you spank your kids Taliban? Your dog?


Aside from this -- I know of no other software that offers updates weekly or biweekly. If these are all indeed, as you say, "bug fixes," then LimeWire needs to do some serious reconsideration of its current Beta stage.

I, like mac_terminator, am getting a little suspicious (and tired) of downloading revisions so frequently.

Taliban, mac_terminator's and my posts are highly desirable, constructive, customer feedback. For the most part, so are the comments on this "general discussion" forum. If LimeWire doesn't like our comments, then they can tell us.

Your flaming and dismissing of even intelligent concerns is more annoying than the few posts you think are "whining."

I'm sure glad that I'm not the only one that thinks Taliban's remarks are childish.

I personally like the frequent updates. This way, any improvements can get out in the field as fast as possible, instead of having to wait on 5 other improvements. No one is forcing you to get each little update (though i do :) )

And Taliban, I know you know a lot about java and limewire, and have used that knowledge to help people. That is part of the reason I'm surprised at your attitude in this thread. If it's getting to you so bad, just step back for a while and breathe deep.

I think Moak's off his gourde (but certainly not clueless). He may yet be right though, who knows?

The FAQ is a bit sparse, ie stuff like java versions and scrollbars. Anyone who knows anything about java knows that you need java 1.4.0, but some people don't know a thing about java (witness the who's this javaw.exe guy anyway? thread) It is true, the answers are in the forums, but they would be so much easier to find in a FAQ than through searching the forum.

No time to make a FAQ? Why not let the moderators do it? The do at Winamp, and it runs fine. Give them the ability to make a thread sticky, or have a FAQ or Tech support forum, where only-mods-can-post FAQ threads are stuck up at the top.

One thing I really miss on the download page is the version number. It would be nice to have somewhere to check for the version number, as it's no longer included in the CVS. Now, the way I figure out when to update the version number of aqualime is when I notice a new number in the connection tab. It signals me to update my CVS code, and change the number. Kinda haphazard really.. Just a quibble of course, and I don't expect anyone to make it easier for me to do AquaLime hehe.