legality issues on downloading and IP providers
 

On morning TV news today they showed limewire being used by one 12 yr old girl, and her father got a legal package from the music industry because she was sharing her files (1200 of them, which is rather a lot)

They traced her by using the IP address which comes up when you find an MP3 that you like, and then go on to look at what other files the person "sharing" has on their computer! The sharer's IP address is displayed clearly in the Limewire panel above the files list.

Is this the only way they can track you? if so, is there any way to prevent giving out your IP address other than to become a Leecher? Are IP providers reporting people to the music industry or are the music publishers just grabbing the IP address and then forcing the IP providers to reveal the users real name and address.

While illegal file sharing is not a great idea, a family computer could be used by up to five people at different times, so why should the person paying for the IP service be the one held to account? It is a bit like a car being photographed speeding from the rear - there is no way of being sure it was being driven by the registered owner - it could be used by several family members?

Are the music industry guilty of breaching human rights in getting this private information simply by leaning on the IP providers.

IP Addresses & Internet Service Providers (ISP)
 

Nervously sharing

You have asked some serious questions, one of them will require a legal expert to answer, I will try to answer your questions based on my own experience.

IP Address

Whenever you go onto the internet your Internet Service Provider (ISP) supplies you with an IP address, which is unique to your PC at the time. Your ISP also logs the time, date, duration, usage, etc. your PC has that IP address for.

To use the internet you need an IP address so that the screens you request, the downloads you action, etc. can find you, just like the post office needs your house address so that your letters, bills, parcels, etc. can get to you.

Although there are some software that claim to be able to hide your IP address these tend to be smoke and mirrors, you cannot hide or disguise your IP address no matter what you do, that is simply the way the internet works.

Are ISPs Reporting People?

No, the music industry hire various companies to watch the internet and, in particular, P2P networks (as well as planting fake music files). When they believe they have enough evidence that a particular IP or ISP is illegally uploading/sharing music files they will get a court order compelling the ISP to hand over the name and address of the alleged offender, which is usually the person that has signed up with the ISP.

Family Computer

If you live in the UK you would have probably seen a mother being interviewed by the BBC that was recently fined £2,500.00 for illegally sharing music files. But, unfortunately for her, it was her son (I didn’t get his age but I gather he is going to university) who was working on his PC in his bedroom. The mother had no idea what was going on but the law and the music industry held her responsible anyway.

I also understand that people in the US have been caught out in the same manner.

Human Rights

You will need a lawyer for this one but, as I mentioned above, the music industry obtain a court order before going after an individual, which then makes it legal and above board.

Hope this helps.




UK Bob

Thank you UK Bob, and yes you make good points, but I already appreciated much of what you said. To restate things a little more clearly, let me try asking again!

IP address... yes I realise what that is, and that it can be static or dynamic (broadband usually static, dialup usually dynamic, but not always - isp dependent, and even static IP addresses change from time to time unless you pay the ISP for a specific and static address - eg for a company ftp site etc).

ISP's reporting their own clients.... I hope they really are not, since it is their role to provide the connection and not to get involved apart from maintenance issues etc. Analogy.. a car maker provides a vehicle but has nothing to do with it's use, legal or otherwise.

Family computer.... well, in the case of a minor, I suppose the responsible adult is the person to whom they would turn, and yet, parents of vandals are not held to account for damage to private property in the UK are they? Seems a bit unfair, however, what about (as in my case) a situation where there are four people all over the age of 18 and only one is paying for the ISP... surely that one person cannot be held to legal account for the actions of the others? Going back to my original example of a speeding photograph, the car owner cannot be held responsible for the actions of anyone else driving the car, nor, under human rights legislation, can he or she be forced to reveal WHO was driving (this is true!).

Human Rights (context of confidentiality) ... I see your point. So this means that ISP's only reveal subscriber details on production of a court order? Fair point, but again, surely the granting of a court order is, in the first place, a breach of human rights and would be a good defence in court - after all, the first element of a successful case is to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt - and where it is impossible to pinpoint the exact offender, it is not legally sound to just shrug your shoulders and say "well, he's the bloke paying the monthly ISP costs, so lets bag him". Or am I missing something here (tongue in cheek but you get my point?).

Let me know what you think, it looks like the music industry is flexing its muscle a bit just now, in the UK and maybe it is a good time to do a stockcheck on what we can do to protect ourselves from indiscriminate and sudden legal action.

By the way, did you notice on that program you mentioned, they had a representative of the music industry to whom they first made the point, in a question, "why are CD's so expensive in the UK in comparison to every other country? if they were priced reasonably nobody would be bothering to look at free downloads anyway"

Did you think his reply "it is to protect the market model" sounded a bit suss? I thought it was bloody ridiculous, but thats impetuous me! ;-)

Ross.

Just a side comment.

In my country, when a person is caught speeding in a car by a speed camera, it's the registered owner of the vehicle who receives the ticket. I suppose unless they could prove their car had been stolen.

There are some isp's that contain fine print in their conditions of use that refer indirectly to p2p share such as use of net for illegal purposes. I've noted this on isp's in USA I've checked out. Also some people who upld a large no. of files can be seen as running a server without permission. Last year someone noted they'd been warned by their isp for uplding copyright material. It really seems to depend on the isp's attitude, country or state, etc.

By the way, a good firewall & utilities such as Peerguardian: http://peerguardian.methlabs.org/pg2.html (FREE) might be handy to have around. Peerguardian will help block out the possibility of known organisations that seek info on users. ukbobboy01 could fill you in more about that.

I'm just glad we as yet haven't had the same issues as UK & USA. (My ISP holds no objections. lol)

ISPs, HRA and other stuff
 

Dear Ross

Your questions now seem to fall into the realms of those that only solicitors can answer but I will try to answer those that I can.

And for those forum readers that do not live in the UK I will apologise now for being very UK orientated.

First, we are both on the same page about IP addresses, nothing more needs to be said on this subject.

ISPs, like everyone else, are governed by the Data Protection Act, they cannot give out your information, which is confidential, unless they have your permission, suspect illegal activity or ordered to do so by a court order.

However, there are some ISPs (like BT) that will warn you about your internet usage (downloads and uploads) and will take action against you if you do not immediately comply with their request.

This happened to me, I once had a BT dial-up connection and, one Saturday, I got an email saying that my internet usage was excessive. Although I said that this was not my fault, at the time it my son was doing a lot of downloading, they still cut me off, as I was the one paying the monthly subs I was the one that got punished (I hate BT).

The next two points I will put together, i.e. Family Computer and Human Rights.

Ross, you know as well as I do, to mount a legal defence against the record industry, based on Human Rights, is a non starter. If they obtain a court order to get your details from your ISP then you don’t have a leg to stand on, they are within their rights under the law to protect their (intellectual) property just like you are entitled to protect your household and possessions.

Beside, trying to mount a legal defence against the record industry could be very expensive and, because you are not likely to get legal aid, you could end up loosing your house and all you hold dear. You would be better off pleading guilty and paying the imposed fine, the alternative just isn't worth it.

Besides, the HRA cannot protect you if you are suspected of committing an illegal act or know of an illegal act being committed under your roof.

However, I could be totally wrong, I am not a solicitor or have anything to do with the legal profession, if you really feel strongly about this matter then you should seek proper legal advice, that generally should cost you under £100.00.

As for the music industry flexing it's muscles, yes they are and I, like you, don’t like it one little bit.

Going off track for a minute, there are a lot of viruses and Trojans being released onto the P2P networks at the moment. And being the paranoid person I am, I suspect that the record industry is trying to cripple the network, plant Trojans to identify P2P users or both. Just as the music industry employs companies to flood the network with fake files I believe they also employing miscreants to flood the network with Trojans (rant over – check out PeerGuardian 2 and see how many companies PG stops from crawling into your PC via port 6346).

Finally (now back on track), the record industry has always wanted to control the methods of distribution and, especially in the UK, ration what we can hear, buy and the retail price we pay in the shops. We, in the UK, have always paid higher prices for our goods than anywhere else. Lots of companies like this because, as price paid bears no relation to cost of production, we provide them with high profits for minimum outlay. Mind you, as residence of this country we have accepted this stupid situation for far too long, non progressive companies, like the RI, are fighting tooth and nail to keep things static. Hence the comment, “it is to protect the market model", i.e. protect their profits by enforcing the high price we pay.

Solution, buy your CDs and DVDs via the internet that way you will get the cheapest price and the best quality.



UK Bob

Peer guardian does not work with my windows macafee firewall, any suggestions for an alternative?

I have Windows firewall turned off, McAfee firewall set to allow LW access to the internet, and PeerGuardian works fine.

Can you be more specific as to how it is not working?

Dano

I think i have windows firewall turned off, McAfee allows LW access, but
whenever i connect to the internet it loads very, very slowly, omiting
all advertising, I went to PG's FAQ, and it said that PG was not compatable
with McAfee. I'm not sure i'm knowledgeable enough to block the McAfee
firewall and load another. What do you suggest? the carpenter hits the
tallest nail first, I'd rather not be that nail. Thanks for the responce

I'm not sure what to say...I haven't had any apparent problems, although I just checked out the Phoenix Labs website, and it does say that PeerGuardian conflicts with McAfee! Their recommendation is to use this firewall instead:

Outpost Firewall

They say the free version is quite good, however, if you want the quickest fix, I would just use your Windows firewall instead. I'm not sure how it compares to the other firewalls.

Here's how you would shut down McAfee firewall:

1. Open McAfee Security Center (double-click on M in system tray)
2. Select 'personal firewall plus' tab
3. On top, it will say 'click here if you want to disable personal firewall plus'

P.S. It is my opinion that Limewire may be slowing down your internet connection, not PeerGuardian (PG may slow it down a little?)...although PG will block access to certain sites. I just disable PG while the page loads, then turn it back on. If it is a site you use regularly, you can open PG and choose to allow access permanently (a little difficult to do).

Best of Luck :blink:

shut down mcafee and and turned windows firewall on, reinstalled PG
everything working fine, will turn "block HTTP" off and on as needed
as I can't get a responce to a right click in log area, as suggested by
PG's FAQ....Thanks for the advice.