Gnutella has a problem
 

Dear developers,

there is a problem. Let me describe my personal dissapointment with Gnutella: I collected
voices from different developers and have spoken it out (I prefer to speak out problems
to solve them). Now I wonder, many have been complaining about Vinnie, Bearshare and
Limewire... but many stay silent. Well, I don't have a own client and it's not my problem
anymore. But it's very inefficient and insincerely IMHO to complain behind the lines and
officialy speak 180° different. Of course, it's not easy to stand against the commercial
pressure and the so called "GDF big players". Also it's human to keep good friends with
everyone and complain behind closed doors not to annoy anyone you might need later, but
is this a tactic to solve real problems?

Perhaps you didn't like how I have spoken up, too much "thunder and lightning"? Do you
still think Bearshare-Limewire-aliance will change anything if you ask them with chocolate
and cream on top? We allready did this for months. The gnutella civil war (mainly
originated from Vinnie's bearshare.net IMHO) is about one year old. It's an old problem,
with Limewire following in Vinnie's steps it's not geting smaller, it's only getting worse.
You know me as a pro Gnutella speaker for months. I have put so much energy and time
here in Gnutellaforums and other places, building up something to help new developers,
answering emails, writing articles, reviewing source code, developing new ideas or
promoting free clients like Xolox and PEERanha.... I was nice and friendly for months,
but I can't look anymore on Gnutella and watch silent while it suffers. I see the problems
inside Gnutella for about a year now and it's slowing Gnutella down. There is time for
diplomacy and there is time for honesty.

BS/LW feel comfortable in their current position and clustering, they have a kind of
control, a small good market share, make some bucks, giving each other justification
and compliments for their work and have some developers in their "Gnutella Developer
Forum". They making some steps forward. No, "Ultrapeers" is not the big glory alone,
more or different concepts to increase availability and usabilty are needed IMHO,
without an eat-this-or-die behaviour to other clients. Other clients
also don't cluster/block e.g. Bearshare away because it allows freeloading with a
click of a button (which is much more "unhealthy" IMHO).
Didn't some of you say "there is something that has to be changed to make Gnutella
more attractive and increase technology"? I doubt, without asking for changes there
would be any changes in the next months.
Meanwhile current situation is causing increasing dislikes among developers. Development
is slow, less support for new developers and a existing kind of GDF high society and
lobbying is not making Gnutella more attractive. Nothing is regulated, what is not
fairly regulated.

Don't forget the unfriendly voices of fans from different clients, badmouthing one of
your fellow combatant and religious trolls in forums doesn't cause a friendly tendency
or more cooperation. No, it's anyoing for users and devlopers which spend a big amount
of their spare time for free!

I don't think LW is the big selfish evil, but even LW is not a saint, especially with
the increasing Bearwire business alliance. Afisk, I do appreciate you wrote an email
to Xolox now after 7 months, maybe you should have searched conversation with other
developers in the past? You know I tried with several PMs to talk with you, but with
a lack of communication I have seen LW drifting away into Vinnies model of spyware and
clustering. In my honorable opinion Bearshare and Limewire have to change (especially
the closed doored GDF lobbying) or Gnutella development has to be splitted! It's allready
happening, many developers outside the GDF and godXBlue (PEERanha) left Gnutella,
who's next?

Okay, I'm doing a strong "rebellion course" against Bearshare and Limewire. Because I
really believe, Bearshare and Limewire have to change to a more open and democratic
politics - or accept an outsider handling when they come with spyware, clustering or prorietary
extensions. Of course this is not the only problem with Gnutella, but only once the
dislikes are eliminated a more constructive cooperation can begin.
There is one important thing I care a lot: Don't waste your time with fighting, better
ignore the GDF and loud PR now and break free, impove your code and make Gnutella
or a different P2P system a better place, support new devlopers. Build or use a good
free client! I believe a constructive bundling of creative minds is better and brings
more than selfish ideas or anger. It's a wild guess, but giFT or the next Xolox will
leave the slow GDF back in dust again. Just by using a free client you're fighting back!

Let me explain my idea of a Gnutella or different P2P network again: it's fair, friendly,
efficient and in peacefull cooperation, where the benefit of a better network will be
for every client and for all users.

Happy sharing and bye, Moak

Whew...
 

Well, i could copy your message and post it again here - or i say i agree to you!

I don't care if someone thinks i'm an idiot because i'm agreeing, but i've seen MUCH in my life, and i've heared many developers, agreeing in long discussions that the problem is that BS rules the GDF while it isn't a 100% free client.

Some other models are made, some other Protocols are begun - nothing changed, it seems as if many developers are like ... hm ... parrots for example: stupidly repeating what vinnie&co doing...

Why don't you all say what you're thinking? come on, tell me what you think! Be honest!

[WARNING: TANGENTIAL, INCOHERENT RANTING AHEAD]

Well, I think that Gnutella is carpy without ultrapeers. You should check out Direct Connect; the admins exort evil, czar-like power over the users (I was banned from my favorite hub recently because I accidentally shared an exe file), but the restrictions keep the hub free of leechers and generally make everyone happy. Wouldn't it be nice if you could actually find the rare file you were looking for on Gnutella? Well, if there was a 5GB minimum share to access the network, I'll bet you could. ;)

LimeWire is an excellent step in the direction of DC, with its freeloader blocking and ultrapeers; I run FreeWire myself. BearShare, however, is corroding the Gnutella network; because of the BearShare black hole, the only way you can get into its part of the network is to have a seperate cache for BearShare and all other clients. No client I know does this.

A perfect Gnutella network would have everyone using minimum shares except for the people who are OK with the idea of freeloaders sucking their bandwidth. Ultrapeers would be the norm, but there would also be connections to other clients in case an important ultrapeer shut down. Oh, and clients would be able to discriminate on the basis of filenames shared (e.g., .vbs files would get you kicked from the network), there would be a common chatroom that echoed across the network, and BearShare-like black holes would be nonexistent.

Dream on, Ashi.

I'd just like to disagree with you on a couple points.

There isn't so much of a Bearshare black hole as there is a LimeWire black hole. Bearshare, as I have heard, still connects to other clients even though it does prefer other Bearshare clients. LimeWire on the other hand, doesn't seem to connect to many other clients at all unless you're an ultrapeer.

With a perfect Gnutella network, there would be no talk of blocking freeloaders and nobody would be required to share anything. I don't believe in shutting out freeloaders. They're just as much a part of the network as anyone else. Everyone's gotta start building their library somewhere.

Also in a perfect Gnutella network, there would be ONE client encompassing ALL great features from ALL clients, communication on the network would use a LOT less bandwidth, and firewalls would accept and pass Gnutella traffic by default.

I've heard the exact opposite. But, then again, we don't have the BearShare source code, so we can't compare the two.

In my humble opinion, freeloaders are mainly people who don't WANT to share their files. If you really don't have enough for a minimum share, just grab some files off of Gutenberg. I think it's greed that's the problem, not lack of files. And if you don't share your files, you're just using up bandwidth.

Amen to that. :)

Well, that's where we disagree. IMO, it's everyone's right not to share if they don't want to (or can't for some reason). And I don't agree with treating these people any different on the network just because that's the choice they made.

Hey Moak,

I know you put a lot of effort in here and I can understand you completely. But to be honet: I think this is just how business works. LW and BS as the strongest providers for clients stake of their claims and maximize their business.

I completely agrre with your post, but I think there is nothing you/we can do about it. I mean all you can do is to appeal to BS/LW to change back but that is all we have.... and thsat is not much compared to business.

Felix

ehm .. the last post is mine Moak ... I forgot to log-in

The problem comes down to greed, without greed Gnutella would be great!

Who the hell wants to contribute source code and personal time to a network where Vinnie and LW make all the money from it? I DON'T!

We don't need BearShare's code to share, we don't need LimeWire's code to share, we have free open spam free code and should use it and ban the rest!
All the Vinnie problems would disappear in a minute as he tried to form his own private network, and LW would file chapt 7 the next day.
Everyone else would jump on the first open source client they could find, and a lot of people would start contributing to the source code base in short order.

Save Gnutella! Block them all! Block them now!

I have some really good ideas to improve the Gnutella Network in big ways but I won't write one line of code 'till BS and LW get off it. No free innovations for them!
Users now suffer because of corporate greed.

Why don't you openp2p guys quit bothering us and spend more time working on your lame excuses for real gnutella clients

I agree that all the various gnutella developers should have an equal input into things like the GDF, otherwise the network will stray from its roots as an open P2P network. I'm not that bothered if people go off and make closed-source clients, stick adds and spyware in them, and do anything else to them that I wouldn't want in a client because I can always just use a client without all those things that is open source. To argue otherwise is to argue against the principles of the Free Software movement IMHO. If some clients are actively ruining the Gnutella network for other clients, then those other clients' developers should first try to resolve the difference with those bad clients, and then if that's not sucessful find a way of working around them. If the "bad" clients are simply making the network better for themselves, but not making the network for everyone else any better, then leave them to it. The network is open to all, not just those with whom most developers agree.

And on the topic of freeloaders, I think it should be allowed on the network for several reasons. First of all, those who don't get much time on the net, and have a slow connection (myself sometimes included) simply cannot use the network if half the bandwidth is lost to uploads. Sometimes I need to freeload to be able to get a file in time. At other times (when possible) I'll leave my client sitting there completely open to uploads. Others with even slower connections (<56k) probably always freeload because to do otherwise would be to make the network useless from them.

Now obviously there are probably a lot of people with fast connctions who are freeloading, and that's bad, but it must be allowed because otherwise the network isn't about freedom, which IMHO is paramount. We should encourage people to share through text in clients, the design of clients, through these forums and any other areas in which we come into contact with other users.

Moak your ideals for gnutella are just your ideals.. You dont own the network as much as the next guy. Posts like this, blaming all the popular programs, and other tyrates dont help no matter how much you claim to have done for guntella. The fact that you do nothing to improve the network but instead just bashings against a few programs where you want to split the network apart and encrouage developers to not work with eachother in improving gnutella which is really in everyone's best interest.

Your ideals is really just the same vague description over and over which you use in threads like this where you bash programs and the current network. Not once have you actually proved your ideals.

So instead of the bashing against programs and the network as it is today please post how wonderful your ideal will be and what it would mean for the guntella and most importantly why do you think it will work? Whats the incentive for developers? and what direction does it take gnutella? Please provide some actualy data and examples to support your ideals.

Also without bashing other programs, developers or the gdf explain how gnutella has gotten worst from a year ago? Please explain that to me because IMHO gnutella has gotten alot better..

Do i think you will actually finally post what your "ideals" will mean for gnutella no. I expect you and your groupies to post some insults, call me a troll and etc.. Which make me wonder if your "great" ideals really exist at all.

There isn't any, that's the point. Your favorite BearShare author caused all this so you may want to think about how your support for that client has taken Gnutella to new lows.

someone said: "Gnutella to new lows."

On the contrary, gnutella (technically) has never been better.

The people that are most vocal about their anti-gnutella views just don't like the spyware and politics of the big commercial client developers.

"Get over it, this is just how things work". If you guys don't like the commercial aspects of gnutella, then help develop that openp2p protocol where you can block/control what clients use it.

Ok "unregistered" or moak. You still havent answered my post which i asked how is gnutella at a "new low" as you put it. Considering that you havent and that your once again posting more baseless accusations,and finger pointing.

So lets try this again. Post whats so bad with gnutella and feel free to use some examples and data to support your claims. Otherwise to me it seems that your just throwing up the accusations because you really cant explain how gnutella is so bad..

Oh come now Sephiroth, Moak et al are doing exactly what you suggest, venting their furstrations and trying to best articulate their beliefs about problems in the Gnutella network. Of course if those problems are real, then Gnutella must have got worse since Bearshare and LW grew into the huge clients they are toda, so the "new lows" statement is quite justified.

They already have, and you have already replied with your opinion of their views, so let's leave it at that.

Read this
 

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9888
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9434
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=5534
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=5442
http://opensourcep2p.sourceforge.net/

Re: Read this
 

I didnt ask for a list of links to be given the run around.
I think its really a very simple request that isnt inappropiate to ask someone who is going at the lengths that moak is by posting threads like this and etc.

What is their purpose and what exact their "great" vision of gnutella is.. I think that if a persin really had one and trule believed in it that they would remember and would be able to explaining it to people should be a very easy thing to do. As well as going into detail how the network has gotten worst.

Facts,Facts,Facts
 

Why do you wanna have everything explained? why don't you read existing sources? We explained it again and again, and we are tired of that.

But ok, i'll try to explain it -again- to you, if you read it without saying "wrong" because it's cool to say "wrong"; just sit back and relax........

There are - in my opinion - 3 or 4 problems with gnutella:

- as in many other threads mentioned, the "commercial ones":
(O) Building Spyware into clients isn't ok, there's the feature to don't install it, but: the normal user doesn't even know what spyware is!!
I have nothing against making money with a client, i hate that they make money with information of uninformed users, would you like to have your credit card number publicied without knowing that??

(O) The influence in the GDF, especially BS alias Vinnie: If you haven't realized it yet, Vinnie rules the GDF, everything that he says has to be done. If you keep to don't implement it, you're concidered as unhealthy for the net, without a technical reason (see Xolox, and later the rest of the 0.4 clients)

(O) Endless debates about small topics are slowing down developing

(O) The commercials only do what's best for THEM, not for the network, do you really think clustering clients as BS does is OK? The time that they prefer own clients has already come, a net split between them and the rest is needed!

(O) Changes are implemented before thinking about them, for example Ultrapeers

and much more...

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

Please, Seph, don't say "no" before thinking about these points.. otherwise the effect will be that you not encouraging new ideas,but destroying all.. Maybe this is also my last post, i've much to do for my last big tests in school.

as morgwen has in his signature:
patience is a virtue ;)
thx morg*g*

Re: Facts,Facts,Facts
 

I asked moak to explain his post and his great ideal for gnutella which he spoke of. Which im still waiting...

Anyways your post is exactly what im talking about. You just posted bashed programs and the network today.. and on topics that dont concern you. Like "spyware" worry about your own box. Many people know about spyware but just dont care.

Now about your points..

What could be done? maybe there are some points:

- building up a small community of developers who decide equally which features are good and which not.

What about programs like xolox and others that dont or wont partcipate?? And how do you stop programs from implementing "bad" features on a open network? Also there is allready a community built but a small group of people here like yourself, moak and others seem content in splitting it up and tearing it apart.

- dividing client developing and network developing a bit more: That would mean that in the end all clients speak the same language and are 100% compatible to each other.

100% compatible is impossible. Your assuming that developers will agree with each other 100% of the time and that every developer will implement every proposal 100% of the time even though that may not be the direction they want to take their program. Over time if a program doesnt support major advances then they could get left behind because legacy versions cant be supported forever.

- creating 2 nets: a huge User.net, the normal net...
and a small Developers.net, where developers can test out changes and new ideas

Good idea but how will the developer net get enough users on it to sustain the net and be large enough to accurately portray the current network.. Its not that easy. There are projects like gnutella simulators which can accomplish this.

The GDC was - in my opinion - a step into the right Direction, but it seems that everyone has given up and left the whole gnutella devloping

Whats the GDC? If you mean the GDF then it think your wrong. Look at the second paragraph of the next question.

To come to a conclusion, my opinion is, that all not-commercial developers should leave the GDF and meet at another place to discuss and decide equally (e.g. Polls) what to do.

There is no reason to do that since the GDF is an open and free place for everyone started by gnutellahosts.com and a idea like that really goes against what the GDF is suppose to be. It allready is a neutral place if some programs dont partcipate then thats their decision they can live with it.

Polling to see what is done i dont think should be used on a regular basis because its slow, and because its an open network people wont change their mind because the poll says otherwise. Being an open network is really gnutella's greatest strength and greatest weakness..

[EDIT]

Detail: BearShare connected to Gnutella. 'nuff said.
I don't think I have to go into how the BearShare BrowNosers are screwing things up too.

reply...
 

Sorry, it seems that moak left the GF, if you want to know why (if you don't already know), please come to the irc channels and ask him.

You just asked for what's wrong with the network, and i listed some facts that are discussed in many threads, they are not only my opinion...

If someone really doesn't care, he can install as much as he want, but i c it on this pc (a multi user pc) where i have to remove accidently installed spyware (e.g. by my sister) every 2 days.

The problem are not people who don't care, the problem are people wo don't KNOW it!

If you'd install a programm, would you uncheck "CommonName Toolbar" for example (or would you try to remove it if it's automatically installed)?

The first question is easy- if you want to implement it, you can do it, if you want to add your ideas, you have to be member of the small community of developers, and if the protocol doesn't fit your needs, you don't have to use it.

bad features...hm... i haven't thought much about that yet, maybe it could work like this: If a member of this community implements a bad feature, he'll no longer be a member; if someone else implements a bad feature, his client will simply be incompatible.

I know it's not possible, but it should be a main goal to get near the 100%.
Developers don't need to implement all features, but if they are to far away from the other clients, they are incompatible because some features are *NEEDED*
They then have to search a solution, e.g. finding another protocol, or impementing these features.

That's really a problem, maybe we could switch some clients into a both-net mode, that they use the normal net, and have some ports free for building a test net, which is not directly connected to the user net (it would be about 1% more CPU usage to the users) - that's the price for new updated software.

No i meant GDC, the GnutellaDev Community, founded in #gnutelladev. It was a try to collect some developers and develop the clients with equal feature decisions etc.

There is a reason to leave the GDF, i repeat it: Vinnie!! Look in my posting you quoted to get the answer why he's the reason.

i forgot to say, pollings should be made in the member area, where the developers are, and here it is how it could work:

Someone has an idea, say SuperduperGIGApeers. He writes a description about it. Then, it will be discussed and changed in CHAT or FORUM, with a time limit, let's say 2 weeks. Then there's a poll where every member can chose what's best for him. At the end, say another week later, it's ready for implementing into the Developers.net, or if noone wants it, it will not be used.

Any questions? ;)

The whole thing s6x
 

Morgwen, please remove the unecessary flooding of Sephiroth quoting the entire post of Phantom81. Sephiroth, this type of deliberate obfuscation of the forum is what gets people the name of 'troll'. If you behave like one, people will call you one. Why don't you edit your post and remove the 30 lines of quote before Morgwen has to? The original post is immediately above your post, you should not quote the whole thing AGAIN immediately below your post.

I hate 'the' GDF and I've only read two messages there. I hate it because it is 'behind closed doors' - they do not promote it's existence, it is not listed in Yahoo - I found two or three other P2P discussion groups there, but not 'the' gdf.

Accept firstly that there is no 'the' gdf. There will never be a 'the' gdf. There are already too many other gdfs .. these need to be consolidated if other developers want to get anywhere. Make it someplace open and friendly. Don't go with this idea of having restricted members, expelling people etc. That is just childish.

The one criteria for whether something is considered is whether it makes sense. Post references and background information so people can understand your suggestions, and they will be considered if they make sense. If people post nonsense, contentless propoganda, just ignore them.

I make the above observations because I think that an open protocol should be developed in the open - it seems the only way. And so a culture needs to be adopted which is defensive of important information and ideas, and which reduces the flooding we see so much of in this forum.

By all means people should be able to give their opinions, but when it becomes repetition of things previously stated, please at most give a link to where it was previously stated.

In response to the question of how do you enforce well behaved clients in an open network, for the answer lets look at the internet in general. It is an open network - the only requirement for participation is to speak TCP/IP or your packets won't get routed onto the network.

So why is it that people aren't able to just bombard servers, send wrong packets etc? Well, they can, but the servers and all good network software which interfaces with the network are built defensively. They sanity check packets before passing or accepting them. A lot of time goes into this, and gnutella it seems is too young to have developed a lot of this, so 'exploits' such as passing encrypted packets are tolerated by the clients, when in fact they should not be.

Then there is the 'organised defensive response' technique - how does the internet deal with spammers? Well, in fact people who adminsiter mail gateways put a lot of time and effort into protecting you from spam, believe it or not. There is a forum news.admin.net-abuse on usenet with many subbranches for particular protocols. One of these deals with email spam. People who ALLOW the use of their email gateways for a significant amount of spam, find that mail coming from their gateway is blocked. This makes it annoying if they host people other than spammerss as well, eg if ibm allowed spammers to relay through their gateway, all the ibm staff would be up in arms because their business emails would not be answered or would bounce.

I hope you see the analogy I am trying to make here, Sephiroth - gnutella is growing up and needs to learn to start to behave itself, or it will die. Sad fact of life. There are plenty of competing protocols now with the same idea. The only thing gnutella has going for it (believe me!) is the large number of open source clients. If these guys die, then you have two or three big commercial clients, and that is no different to say fast-track - except fast-track was designed properly from the beginning, and works. There are lots of fast-tracks. There is only one gnutella.

So when the open source clients die, gnutella will be eaten by fast-track or something similar, and then you will be back to square one - lots of small clients trying to build a protocol from scraps of opensource software.

Make yourself a shortcut - go with the opensource software now and build on it sensibly, not higgledy piggledy two-weeks-thinking-before-we-implement-something-fashion.

For people eager to get 'things underway' there are plenty of things that can still be worked on while other things are being thrashed out.

I think LimeWire were unconsionable in bringing out SuperDuperPeers the way they did - effectively blocking older clients from 98% of their clients overnight. They should have phased it in gradually until other clients had accepted that the implementation they had chosen of ultrapeers was the right one and had started to build compatible clients, then reduce the number of connections to non-ultrapeer clients.

Yes, this results in less 'benefit' to the limewire clients who have done "ooh so much work" to 'improve the gnutella network'. But it is polite. Sorry, you may respond 'but this is business' - I respond 'b*ll*&%'. The most successful business people are also the most polite people you will meet. Having an eye for an opportunity is not the same thing as trying to bend the world to your will and pulling the wool over the eyes of your customers. That is very common, but by no means necassary for success.

Spamware IS evil. Spyware IS evil. In current implementations, the two are the same. Advertisers want to 'target' their ads, so the customer is spied on. Sorry, but it is a fact. So far this has been happening for too short a time to see the consequences. And like most computer crime, the consequences will be under-reported even in the rare cases that they are detected, because they are embarrassing.

A network free of commercial clients seems the only response at the moment, to all these problems. We are fighting a <B>threats</B>. It is not that the network is completely screwed right now, it is the fact that it looks like it is getting screwed, and if we don't do anything it will be screwed. It is not that people are completely spied on but it is the threat that they will be endlessly watched and marketed to in return for the priveledge of communication.

As you said, most people don't care. Most people don't care when they buy petrol that the environment is being screwed for profit. But luckily some do, and I'm thankful for it. The less that ordinary people care, the more extreme those who do care have to become when the threat is real and dire.

Nos

Re: The whole thing s6x
 

I do not know of any 30 line rule if a Mod askes(in morgwens case askes nicely) then ill be happy to go back and edit out the quotes when i see such a notice keep in mind that i dont visit these forums everyday.

The fact that you personally attack my past posts by calling them flooding, ask me to be modded, and then hint that im a troll.. Then you expect me to take you seriously?

The gdf and network resources should be more easily able to access and find them and it will happen eventually not like it can be done overnight. You only read two messages so you really dont know anything that goes on there.

You see the major difference between gnutella and networks like fasttrack is two things.

first its an OPEN NETWORK!! Is Fasttrack an open network? No.. Its a propierty network.

and second gnutella is a PROTOCOL not just a network.

So your whole open source is the only hope for the future isnt valid because its impossible for a few programs to gain total control of an open network because if other programs dont like anything then they can just go start their own network.

Spyware let me repeat this for the millionth time SPYWARE IS NOT A NETWORK ISSUE.. Its the users choice to use whatever program they want. If you can use whatever program you want then others deserve that same right without your interferance because you have no bussiness to worry about whats on other people's computer because it DOES NOT AFFECT YOU.

Also i think its important that gnutellahosts not limewire had the first implementation of a "ultrapeer" type system with there reflector.. In either case they only improve the network and dont have any negative because nodes that dont have ultrapeers just connect like normal. Also i think its important to mention that other programs will be compatible with Limewires implementation.

In the end I think your just making up problems as you go along. Also remember that Gnutella is a protocol and if you want a "commerical-free" network then go start one like openp2pnet. Whos going to stop you?

You do not need to "fix" the current network in any way and if you truely believe that this "network free of commercial clients" will be as great as you claim it will be and it will be people's "only hope" in the future then im sure that you will have no problem in getting people to use it without resorting to bashing the current network, programs and etc at all.

let me repeat this for the zillionth time, YES IT IS!
I don't want to contribute to the spam/spyware companies in any way! I don't want to be part of their support network.
When you connect to me using BearShare you are using my CPU to help support BearShare spyware.
Get that crap off Gnutella!
The only way to do it is to block them all!
Block, block, block!

Re: Re: The whole thing s6x
 

Sephiroth...

Nosferatu is right you are flooding... you repeat over and over again the same! You called others trolls too, you are whining EVERY time when somebody DON´T agree with you that the people attack you... do you think we can take you seriously???

How old are you? 15???

Morgwen

Morg,
You'll notice Moak has done the same thing. I don't know how many threads he's started or taken onto his anti-bearshare/limewire soapbox. We've all read it and at this point it's just trolling.

Re: Re: Re: The whole thing s6x
 

If posting what you accuse me of posting the same thing over and over isnt that what many others here including yourself have done too? Much of the "problems" and etc listed by other people here have also been repeated many many times over in the past here. Yet im the only one "flooding."

This isnt the first time you have called me a "whiner" for posting and supporting my opinions which disagree with yours. Why your allowed to get away with all this is beyond me.

Also please find here in this thread where i called someone a troll..

Im sick of dealing with this everytime i post here and it isnt what some people want to hear..

troll flooding
 

Prove your words. how many, which soapbox?

Re: Re: Re: Re: The whole thing s6x
 

I don´t know which language you understand???

You are a whiner because YOU whine every time that somebody attacks you... in this thread you said that Nosferatu has attacked you, WHERE??? Yes he disagrees but where he has ATTACKED YOU???

I never said you called someone in THIS thread a troll, but you have done it and it doesn´t matter in which thread!!!

Yes I am sick too, every time we discuss something you come here and tell us your wisdom (this part is OK!!!) after someone disagrees you whine that the people attack you (this part is childish!). If you want to discuss with us act like a man not like a kid!

Morgwen

i dont know about you, but i get a woody every time a bearshare brownoser is attacked, oooooooohhhh do it again!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The whole thing s6x
 

Maybe if people could reply without resorting to personal remarks and sticking to the topic. Which is what i was complaining. But if you think its ok then ill just ignore it and their entire post in the future. Ive been called worse.

I didnt "whine"(in your terms) to Phantom81 post or any of the posts before.

But how can anything really be discussed anything if nothing but personal remarks, insults and etc are flying back and forth? Also what about things in the past here like all the anti-bearshare/limewire posts. Where all those really mature and meaningful posts posted by "mature" people.

offtopic flooding
 

please make this private or whine at home, kid.

gnutella forums is the only place you can tell the truth about bearshare or limewire without being edited or deleted so it's no wonder there's so much bearshare bashing going on here.
everything is happy, happy, happy on the other forums (with massive deleting going on that is)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The whole thing s6x
 

Hmm...

personal attacks? I tried to post on bearshare.net a few times after the kick Morgwen poll - what do you think how the people discussed with me? They insulted me too!!! What do you think what I have done? I ingnored it or replied ironic, but I never whined that they attacked me!!!

And what you are calling attacks and flames are normally ONLY unfriendly replies - if you want to see REAL flames go to bearshare.net! Yes they called me a NAZI only because I live in Germany!!!

If you feel insulted ignore it and reply to the topic, but STOP whining with every second word about it!!!

And please STOP to claim that Moak or me hide behind every corner, not every anti-bearshare post is from us!

Morgwen

Whining or not
 

My last post was only about the topic and you haven't answered to any of the points

Let me repeat it: you also haven't answered to it. You only whined about the next post


Simple idea: talk only about the topic, don't flood and don't think everyone wants to attack you. Different people have different opinions. I hope that's ok for you.


By the way, Sephiroth, Moak told me i should tell you something:

- detailed information about it is there: http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=9888
- "nice greetings from Moak, he did explain enough and also doesn't talk with trolls."


P.S. Please answer my post where i described everything in detail, and don't whine any more...

Gnutella .....
 

"I tried to put my work in the Gnutella project some time before Blubster, but it was a bit chaotic to get your ideas heard."
Says creator of Blubster on Zeropaid http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04222002a.php

"BearShare is awful, and I think that Vinnie guy should either play by the Gnutella rules or design his own network."
Says hackmaster himself Dr. Damn http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04212002a.php

Gnutella does have a problem and that problem is the fighting between fans of each client. When we fight with each other we are just helping out the RIAA and their goon's.

The absolutly worst thing that could happen to the network would be if the different clients started blocking each other. This would result in little sub-networks forming (i.e. a BS network, a LW network, a gnucleus network, etc.). These sub-networks would be easy for the RIAA with all its resources to attack. Right now the only reason that Gnutella is immune to attack is the networks size. In order to attack you would need to be able to map and monitor the network. This is impossilbe at present but if the network sub-divides into factions then it becomes possible.

Keep the network sharing and keep the network strong. BS/LW are commercial ventures that require a strong network in order to be succesful. It is in their best interset to keep the network strong and out of reach of the RIAA. The other clients benefit from the added contributions of BS/LW.

There are things that we don't like about what certain developers are doing BUT we all have the option of using a different client. As long as those developers are allowing their clients to share with the rest of the network on the most current protocol (I know this will hurt those using older clients but protocol's do change and it is not resonable to expect developers to make all the clients backwards compatable, though this does improve an individual clients ability to find rare files) then they have the right to develop their clients any way they see fit. A client that prefers itself to other connections is not seperated from the network (it still will connect outside of its own kind) and its files are still accessable to others on the network.

Viva Gnutella

This is exactly what bearshare and Limewire are doing!

Yes sure actually they can share from each other but do you really think this is the last step? Vinnie is talking for a long time now that he wants to create his own net! And nobody hacked bearshare and can explain us what this encrypted packets etc. are doing... yes there are users reported that bearshare cuts the connections!

Only future will tell us who is right!

A yes fans fighting against each other because its a famous sport on bearshare.net to trash other clients (see Xolox), some people there think they are something special because they are using bearshare and not client X! The idea behind Gnutella is helping each other and not just yourself, I see more and more that the commercial clients don´t want to help... they create new feature, instead of creating a new protocol which includes the proposals and this new features they cluster their nodes together!

Yes Viva Gnutella - but ALL should respect some rules...

Morgwen

No, the commercial clients are the weak point. You have a company that can easily be sued out of existance because they are underfunded and would fold in a minute if they had to hire a real lawyer. Most would rather dissapear then fight with some real cash.

Open source, free to use clients are the way to go. Support them! Write some docs, suggest some features, convince others to run the clients instead of commercial ones, do some PR for them. Do whatever you can and you can help to save gnutella from the RIAA!

The RIAA knows greed, they know how to use it against companies and they know it won't take much to take out a big chunk of gnutella any time they want through the commercial clients.

If we are all using open source, free to use clients, gnutella can't be stopped or slowed down in any way. If someone does something to the network directly, we can respond quickly with a code fix and distribute that fix quickly, within hours. If the RIAA tries to use threats to ISP's, then we make some code changes quickly to prevent that.

There's no stopping open source clients!

Exactly, give it a name: Bearshare fans started it, tolerated from Vinnie. BS fans trashing other clients were often made a VIP (very important person) or a moderator on bearshare.net. Don't forget Vinnies position: badmouthing anything that isn't Bearshare. Doesn't sound like a improvement for me.

BS/LW do not strongen the network, they try to control the network and make it a BS/LW network. Meanwhile they disadvantage other clients, create obstacles, puting fuel on the fire of clients badmouthing, discourage and prevent other developers and spread serious scumware to pay their own bills. That's the problem.

Bearwire news
 

Bearshare now includes Cydoor. They have announced there will be a PRO version, like Limewire, without any kind of 3rd party software

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04272002a.php

Re: Bearwire news
 

they never get enough. make money with spyware, make more by selling a spyware free version. I'd like to know which greedy idea comes next.

Re: Re: Bearwire news
 

Bearshare lite? ;)

Morgwen

Re: Re: Re: Bearwire news
 

Saeger wrote on Zeropaid:

"I remember it was only a year ago when Vinnie was absolutely EMPHATIC that he would NEVER charge for BearShare (in any form) - the company is even named FreePeers, Inc. [...] I would link to the relevant bearshare.net posts, but they were all conveniently wiped out in a mysterious screwup a while ago."

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../05082002e.php

More Gnutella quotes
 

"LimeWire, Gnucleus, and others treat all nodes on the Gnutella network equally. BearShare does not. Please don't use BearShare, as it only works properly with other BearShare clients and leaves users with other clients unable to access the files you are trying to share. Here's a simple rhyme to help everyone remember:

Be nice and play fair. Uninstall BearShare."

--\dr. damn/--
Found at http://cleanclients.edot.ch/bearshare.html

Re: More Gnutella quotes
 

nice hipocrisy
 

and? BearShare only works properly with other BearShare clients, it disadvantages other clients and does not allow all clients to connect to it. the shown Xolox downloads (old xolox version) are only because they are connected through non-Bearshare clients! BearShare alone wold block them. Mrgone, also you know it... nice hipocrisy from you again.

did you see the 'share files' checkbox? what an unhealthy freeloading feature!

nice flooding
 

Mrgone, couldn't you make your screenshot bigger?

Re: nice hipocrisy
 

They are connected directly to BearShare. You see, that is how file transfer takes place on Gnutella, peer to peer.

You're getting confused between host connections and file transfer connections. You can read up on the protocol here.

Regardless, the point here is that dr. damn has claimed that users with other clients are unable to access the files bearshare users are trying to share. This is obviously not true.