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General Gnutella / Gnutella Network Discussion For general discussion about Gnutella and the Gnutella network.
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Before you post to one of the specific Client Help and Support Conferences in Gnutella Client Forums please look through other threads and Stickies that may answer your questions. Most problems are not new. The Search function is most useful. Also the red Stickies have answers to the most commonly asked questions. (over 90 percent).
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The Rules

1. Warez, copyright violation, or any other illegal activity may NOT be linked or expressed in any form. Topics discussing techniques for violating these laws and messages containing locations of web sites or other servers hosting illegal content will be silently removed. Multiple offenses will result in consequences. File names are not required to discuss your issues. If filenames are copyright then do not belong on these forums & will be edited out or post removed. Picture sample attachments in posts must not include copyright infringement.

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6. Remember to post in the correct forum. Take your time to look at other threads and see where your post will go. If your post is placed in the wrong forum it will be moved by a moderator. There are specific Gnutella Client sections for LimeWire, Phex, FrostWire, BearShare, Gnucleus, Morpheus, and many more. Please choose the correct section for your problem.

7. If you see a post in the wrong forum or in violation of the House Rules, please contact a moderator via Private Message or the "Report this post to a moderator" link at the bottom of every post. Please do not respond directly to the member - a moderator will do what is required.

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12. Signatures may be used as long as they are not offensive or sexually explicit or used for commercial advertising. Commercial weblinks cannot be used under any circumstances and will result in an immediate ban.

13. Dual accounts are not allowed. Cannot explain this more simply. Attempts to set up dual accounts will most likely result in a banning of all forum accounts.

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15. Failure to show that you have read the forum rules may result in forum rules breach infraction points or warnings awarded against you which may later total up to an automatic temporary or permanent ban. Supplying system details is a prerequisite in most cases, particularly with connection or installation issues.

Violation of any of these rules will bring consequences, determined on a case-by-case basis.


Thank You! Thanks for taking the time to read these forum guidelines. We hope your visit is helpful and mutually beneficial to the entire community.


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
RaaF's Avatar
Modding Member
 
Join Date: April 20th, 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,002
RaaF is a great assister to others; your light through the dark tunnel
Thumbs up A clean fundamentalists aproved network in 3 easy steps

step one, filter porn
step two, filter software
step three, filter mp3

Filtering the network should be seen as a moral dilemma

Last edited by RaaF; August 23rd, 2001 at 09:51 AM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Disciple
 
Join Date: August 20th, 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 10
innoval is flying high
Default To the Gnutella executive who ...

Let me make myself perfectly clear:

1) We are not out to hurt Gnutella in any way shape or form.

2) Our number one goal is to offer as much protection to as many children as possible.

That said, we did not release a product without trying to engage the user community. In these forums, there have been some good ideas and a lot of criticism. Good, I appreciate that. In emails received from Gnutella users (from those we could figure out) about 20% agree with propagation block. About 15% don’t think it is a big deal. The remainder are opposed to it.

Among people heard from who seem knowledgeable, want filtering, and don’t, themselves, use Gnutella, most want propagation blocking. Businesses who want to use Gnutella (and will pay for filtering) favor propagation blocking. For me, that is a problem.

Now, let me also say, we are trying to work with you and get a filter out the door ahead of the competition which may not be so willing to listen or accommodate. There is absolutely no reason for me to be in these forums except to engage and try to seek accommodation.

One of the problems I have as a businessman is trying to find a solution that is free of any coercion, free of threats, free of any conflict of interest. I had hoped for some engagement from the Gnutella companies but received from them mostly diatribes and threats. That’s simply not productive.

So lets get back to my objective of protection to as many children as possible. Lets talk about offsets. So long as the servent monitor windows are in the open and clear, we have a hard time not hiding this information and the only technical way we have found is to block propagation. If the companies were willing to lock those windows with passwords or even honor a semaphore from a filter, then we could come along way towards compromise.

The other criteria, for maximum protection to as many children as possible, is widespread promotion of any responsible filters. Here the companies could help. Here the user community could help. Lets not try to read between lines anymore. You may be suspicious of my motives. Yes, I do want to make money but I don’t need this headache to do so. Our company does very well, thank you. (Yes, we may lose some sponsorship funding if we remove propagation blocking but not if I can put some winning arguments on the table). The goal HERE is to protect as many children as possible. Period.

I’m not a moral prig (or as the previous poster suggested, a fundamentalist). If some of you want pornography that is fine with me. I don’t care to explore reasons, parents who don’t do their job thus it is their fault, First Amendment rights, etc. I care about those things but they are not germane to the fact that filtering is needed now and effectively. I do believe that Gnutella is jeopardized or inconvenienced by some unknown degree if the problem is not addressed. I am trying to do something.

If you haven’t sensed it, I am listening, reading and thinking about what you say. To the Gnutella executive who wrote me to cease and desist, I expect an apology or a clarification, or better yet a good suggestion or two. To the person who sent a package of dog stuff to our office: thank you, the roses will love it. To the rest of you, I need ideas.

Now people, here is a screen shot of the settings window at http://innoval.com/rifilter/screenshot.htm How do we get rid of the second option? Help.

Dan Porter
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Beckerist's Avatar
Madninistrator (Member):)
 
Join Date: August 16th, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 66
Beckerist is flying high
Default

Quote:
To the Gnutella executive who wrote me to cease and desist, I expect an apology or a clarification, or better yet a good suggestion or two. To the person who sent a package of dog stuff to our office: thank you, the roses will love it. To the rest of you, I need ideas.
<br>Insults are unacceptable, Dog Poo is even worse. We are not here to play childish games, we are just worried about certain aspects this program may have on our creation, or product that we helped to create. I think this may have some potential, and I also feel that this is a good place to turn to for help. But when I say help, I generally mean programming help, or something along that lines.
Quote:
Now, let me also say, we are trying to work with you and get a filter out the door ahead of the competition which may not be so willing to listen or accommodate. There is absolutely no reason for me to be in these forums except to engage and try to seek accommodation.
<br>This is not what I was refering to by help. Earlier you said, and I quote "... this is not the place to advertise a filter. That would be naive on my part and inappropriate." However you are saying that you want to get out before the competition. Which is it? I am starting to see the usefulness of this program, but am still seeing downfalls. I am; however, confused why someone would feel that strongly to send insults and physical objects. Anyways, I feel there may be a middle ground here. Innoval (Dan) seems to be fighting for his life on these boards, and we don't need to discourage anybody from developing anything. Maybe just help him to acheive a common ground.

Last edited by Beckerist; August 23rd, 2001 at 12:15 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
RaaF's Avatar
Modding Member
 
Join Date: April 20th, 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,002
RaaF is a great assister to others; your light through the dark tunnel
Default

Come on Dan you give **** all about this community, and your filter will get there wether the Gnutella users like it or not.
All you are interested in is making a buck, and "protecting children" sounds great.
But I rather protect my own two children my way by telling and explaining them what's acceptabe and what's not rather than offer them electronic protection by a buisness man.

RaaF, father of a 10 and 9 year old
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Beckerist's Avatar
Madninistrator (Member):)
 
Join Date: August 16th, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 66
Beckerist is flying high
Default You must admit though...

Even though he is a buisness man, trying to get "One step ahead of the competition", dog crap and fruitless insults are still not necessary. I want to know who would pay postage to deliver that? Who would deliver it in the first place? This is a strange world!
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Disciple
 
Join Date: August 20th, 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 10
innoval is flying high
Default Have it your way

I've said my piece.

Dan
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
RaaF's Avatar
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Join Date: April 20th, 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,002
RaaF is a great assister to others; your light through the dark tunnel
Default

soo cheap.......
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Disciple
 
Join Date: August 20th, 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 10
innoval is flying high
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RaaF
soo cheap.......
You are right. I apologize. And, yes, I do care about the network, partly because we have financial interests in its future, partly because I don't like to be viewed as the bad guy, partly because I support technology advanced. No I don't use it much. My kids do.

Dan
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old August 23rd, 2001
Devotee
 
Join Date: May 20th, 2001
Posts: 22
Ahri is flying high
Default

ROFLMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh my god, that almost killed me, someone sent you dog ****, heehee

You can't be serious. You can't....heehee, dog poo...prevent offensive queries from getting on the monitor list without blocking them. Why can't your program route them? Problem solved. Anyway, that is a stupid excuss. Kids are probably worse off having the really world hidden from them. Come on, you think the word "booby" is somehow going to harm kids? People like this have a very poor oppion of childern. Kids aren't as stupid as you think, they can handle a few dirty words. I've seen what goes threw the monitor, and any child that could be possible be affected by it has been serverly missparented. If parents talked to thier kids about these things, childern would be able to handle a lot more then what could be writen on a screen.

heehee, dog poo in the mail...
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old August 24th, 2001
Disciple
 
Join Date: August 20th, 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 10
innoval is flying high
Smile RiFilter Changes

InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc. will modify its original filter design so that it does not block the propagation of queries or query responses that are being passed through the computer on their way to other computers on the Gnutella network. The filter will, however, prevent children from originating inappropriate queries and, more importantly, from seeing inappropriate query responses to their own queries. This will be done in a way that will have no adverse effect on the network or any running servents (server/clients).

There remain two problems: One, inappropriate queries are visible in the monitor windows of servent applications. Two, by not blocking propagation, inappropriate queries will reach the servent and, in theory, allow the user to share a file that a parent, implicitly or explicitly, does not want shared. We are exploring two options:

1) Provide two APIs: The first API would test for the filter and determine if it is running in lock down mode. The second API would test any query to determine if an upload is appropriate. This approach would require voluntary cooperation by servent developers. In addition we would provide Java classes for the Java-based servents running with Windows runtime environments. We would produce a public standard to encourage other filter companies to do likewise so that a single call would work with any servent that chooses to incorporate this feature.

2) Do all propagation at the filter level of those queries and query responses that are deemed to be inappropriate and do so in full accordance with Gnutella specification and protocol. This is more foolproof but requires that the filter become a surrogate-servent. Architecturally, this is a poor idea and it introduces a liability for introducing down-stream error. For instance, BearShare, sends messages to other BearShare servents.

We value advice from the user community and from Gnutella developers and are open to other suggestions on these problems.

We are also exploring several ways to benefit the Gnutella community with out technology. The filter, having no propagation blocking, would be beneficial to some users who want to limit visibility of responses beyond what is provided for in some servents. We might strengthen some of the algorithms, particularly as they apply to spam and hijacking (a special, growing and difficult problem). Another option, high on our list, is to give the user the option to hide himself or herself from web-based “search engines.” (It is ironic that some people recommended propagation blocking queries from these engines, which we will not do). Web-based search engines, as of now, do nothing to contribute to sharing. We are also examining several “share incentive” options. We are looking at chat, instant messaging, server-side-meta-assisted search for people who want to share in a more robust way, etc. We might also provide support for creating alternate networks/channels that would work with all servents. All of this can be accomplished at the filtration-technology level without having any adverse effect on any servents. We will soon be blocking other P2P networks as well. Since they are proprietary we will likely block them completely leaving Gnutella the only open channel for young people whose parents, schools, etc. choose to filter. Again, we would appreciate advice.

In an attempt to head off inappropriate and irresponsible filtration methods from other companies we might publish filter standards for Gnutella. We would like assistance from the Gnutella servent development community on this and from some of the users who want to see a responsible approach to filtering. It would certainly help the Gnutella community with “image,” if and when congressional investigations or sub-committee hearings take place, if an industry initiative is in place and an optional filter is available.

Okay. We will shortly provide a prerelease version of RiFilter. (See screenshot at http://innoval.com/rifilter/screenshot.htm ). It will not block propagation. Our website will be updated over the weekend to reflect this change. You convinced us. Some of you may think you did so with threats and rude letters. Maybe so. I like to think it was the reasonable people with good suggestions and persuasive arguments. Regardless, thank you for your input.

Dan Porter, President
InnoVal Systems Solutions, Inc.
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