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View Poll Results: Will it be or is Limewire a bad program for Torrents ? (Why?)
Yes 2 25.00%
No 6 75.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old July 18th, 2006
Sleepless's Avatar
Join Date: January 1st, 2006
Location: Unknown
Posts: 3,115
Sleepless is just really nice

Originally Posted by barbarian2

You're right that everyone starts as a freeloader. The only problem is that too many people never stop freeloading. They think that since Limewire works anyway why bother
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2006
Sleepless's Avatar
Join Date: January 1st, 2006
Location: Unknown
Posts: 3,115
Sleepless is just really nice
Talking Trackers

Originally Posted by AaronWalkhouse
Dangerous idea. The MAFIAA always interprets that as an inducement to piracy
and new users tend to be put off by what appears to be selfish barriers to entry.

Gnutella is a sharing network, unlike the trading networks like BT, DC
and others. The reason it is so successful is it doesn't attempt to force
people to conform to a tit-for-tat trading model, and that's why all of the
gnutella developers reject such measures as ratios and inducements.

The pool of available files is still growing but if you sit still on your particular
favourites you eventually see nothing new and see some of your favourites fade
away. The trick is to keep exploring and moving to other shelves in the library.
After doing some more checking up on how this shareratio system works I have found something very interesting. It seems that it is the trackers you use that check up on your shareratio. Whenever you activate a torrentdownload it has to get info on the torrent. This info is gathered by trackers that are embedded in the torrent. when the tracker connects it also transfers your shareratio on that tracker (not all downloads). If the shareratio is lower than the rule set for the tracker the host is banned from using it until ratio is good again, hence the download won't work. Not all trackers have this rule or have it set very low. Private trackers often have above 1/1 ratio or even 1.5/1 while most (not all) public trackers aren't as demanding.

I almost can't wait until all the Newbies come on this forum whining about how only some files will download even when multible hosts have the file

Maybe Limewire could make it's own tracker for all the freeloaders
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2006
Join Date: November 22nd, 2005
Posts: 196
Hyper-kun is a great assister to others; your light through the dark tunnel

I don't know where you download your torrents. I never used any pay-per-suck trackers or any 1337 non-public torrent site. I'm not dense enough to leave my email address in such places, not even a hotmail alias. Anyway, I've download well over 1000 torrents in a few years and never had trouble with ratios. BitTorrent really isn't fair in the literal sense or as some interpret it. Most people on this planet use miserable ADSL or even worse. I for one can download 8-10 times as fast as I can upload. Do you really expect me to seed a file for almost two weeks when it took me day to download it? Maybe you do but I can guarantee you few people will. Just accept that there are people with little and others with more bandwidth. The onces with less often even pay more - in relation anyway - for their bandwidth so it's not like these people are horribly selfish. Sometimes I upload files 10x as often as I download them but most of the time I get at best a 1:1 ratio. Sometimes there just is *nobody* to upload to. That's often when you download at full-speed from a single seed. The larger the file, the less likely that I'll upload it just once because it will get in the way of more important stuff. That's what I also prefer on Gnutella. You can download file by file. If you don't care about the whole set, there's no point in downloading everything and you also have to wait only a few minutes to hours before you have something you can use. When you download with BitTorrent you can hardly preview files nor can you watch them on the fly. Also with Gnutella, all my shared files are *always* availble. Sure my bandwidth will have to be shared among all popular files but Gnutella is full of redundancy. It's better to get a file at a moderate speed than not all, right?

Technically, BitTorrent has little what Gnutella doesn't have and nowadays Gnutella is often just as fast as BitTorrent. Of course not with every file, you'll need a couple of source or at least one fast but that's not different with BitTorrent. Sometimes people even think BitTorrent invented swarming. Nonsense, "download accelerators" swarmed downloads from FTP and HTTP servers long before Napster existed. Gnutella introduced (proper checksummed) swarming in 2002 or even 2001. So it's about as BitTorrent, just that the latter wasn't really well-known or popular before 2004 when a sun exploded. The success of BitTorrent is not the protocol. It's the torrent listing web sites. These prevent spam effectively and increase the quality of content as well as its quantity. Gnutella really offers to combine both. A distributed search engine which is subject to some amount of spamming but link listing sites work just as well with Gnutella. Magnet links are heavily under-utilized, mainly because all Gnutella developers were in a long hibernation and never got around to implement a Distributed Hashtable (DHT) which is required for efficient searches by SHA-1. The latter isn't strictly necessary for Gnutella though as it's very flexible. A tracker-like server with source caching would work just as well. Now if people download high quality content, they will high quality content et voila you'll find more high quality content when you search for it. BitTorrent definitely had a positive effect on Gnutella as well. Many files are originally distributed over BitTorrent and then re-shared in Gnutella.

Therefore, I think the developers of LimeWire are on the wrong track. They may be successful nonetheless but I'd prefer if they improved Gnutella instead. For example, they should have finished their DHT before adding BitTorrent. In the long run, having a DHT for Gnutella *and* BitTorrent will be rather redundant. I believe, BitTorrent support was mainly introduced due to the BitTorrent hype and because they were scared of losing further users (marketshare) to it. I would say this fear is unnecessary. There will always be lemmings running after the next hype but after all Gnutella and BitTorrent have been complimentary so far. Whereas BitTorrent offers you something, Gnutella is the huge store that let's you decide yourself what you're going to look for and each work well in their own areas. I've used BitTorrent extensively but I've never stopped using Gnutella and actually I have more upload bandwidth available due to BitTorrent because the files I get from there, I get really fast. Getting *those* at least at the same time from Gnutella would have taken much more time and resources. As said both have different publishing schemes. A couple of days or weeks later, you'll get the same stuff just as fast from Gnutella. Personally, I really don't give a flying **** whether anyone downloading from me is a freeloader or not. There's someone who likes the same stuff as me. That's cool and that's all I care about. It's a good backup method anyway. Maybe some day, I'll lose some of those files and then I can just get them back again from Gnutella. You shouldn't try decided whether someone is a freeloader or not by looking at a snapshot of its upload history. Maybe someone is a freeloader for a year and then becomes a gracious uploader. This freeloader issue is mainly caused by ADSL anyway. If everybody had a symmetric internet connection nobody would give a **** upload throttling the upload rate or even preventing uploads completely. ADSL was only introduced to sell commercial pay-per-view service later. For these you only need much bandwidth in one direction. These plans have mostly failed so far because people found a better way to use their bandwidth and commercial services are simply too greedy or just as uncomfortable and unreliable as the worst free P2P network.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2006
foolofthehill's Avatar
The Final Frontier
Join Date: March 24th, 2006
Location: Thailand
Posts: 1,974
foolofthehill has a spectacular aura about

I'm following your discussion here with a certain kind of fascination. A very interesting topic with well weighed points of view.
It reminds me of a similar discussion right in the beginning after I became a member here, though the topic was not the assimilation of the torrent technique into the LW/ Gnutella clients.
I guess each of us has different philosophies and approaches. So, I'll reduce my comment to the point of freeloading, or leeching as you call it.
"Be fair and share" would be a logo everyone of us could agrees to.
But if sharing becomes compulsory or mandatory, can you still call it fair??
If your taste (i.e. the files you offer to share) do not fit the taste of others, would it be right to punish you (i.e. restrict you in your downloading capability due to a lack of uploading)??
Gnutella exists despite the freeloaders.
Merging LW with Torrents (or at least creating clients that support both ways) is the next natural step in the evolution of filesharing, and it won't be the last. Sooner or later those who are contra freeloaders (in both groups, gnutella users/ developers and torrent users/ developers) will see that despite the possibility only the minority will leech.
Further developments will go in the direction of supporting up and downloads to sites like rapidshare, megaupload and their likes. Or maybe the possibility to use one's file without downloading on your own computer (depending on the development of the internet speed).

Though just my 5-cent-worth
"Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience"
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old July 22nd, 2006
Sgt Sgt is offline
Gnutella Muse
Join Date: August 24th, 2005
Location: Not Where I'd Liked To
Posts: 225
Sgt is flying high
Default I voted yes

Most of the time, the networks are being flooded with fake files
I already expained how (search the forum)

So you need a dedicated source

I've only had 2 bad files from torrents in the 3 months

where as i've had quite a few on this network (even I get caught somtimes)

They haven't really done much to the bit torrent community yet
as the files that are rubbish is being deleted

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old July 23rd, 2006
Sleepless's Avatar
Join Date: January 1st, 2006
Location: Unknown
Posts: 3,115
Sleepless is just really nice

Hyper Kun

I use the tracker that make me able to get the file which doesn't mean having to pay for it. It just means antifreeloading rules.


This ratio thing does not mean that every download you get from a tracker has to get a 1/1 ratio. It just means that all the torrents you got through that tracker need a 1/1 ratio (e.g. you got 5 fles 800 MB from it you give 1-2 files 800 MB back since 3 were unpopular so very few would download them)

BTW it's great getting this many views on the subject. Well I still believe that it will be a bad idea. I think it's working quite well the way it is done now (i.e people sharing the torrents worth sharing on the Gnutella network)
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old July 29th, 2006
Grandpa's Avatar
Valued Member contributor
Join Date: February 20th, 2005
Location: Depends on the Day
Posts: 3,012
Grandpa will become famous soon enough

Personally I do not care if LimeWire initiates the ability to use torrents or not. I myself use torrents and a public tracker. I prefere the Gnutella network for me it is much faster than torrents on most files. I use torrents when I can not find the file on the Gnutella net I will search for the torrent then DL it after I have it I will share it on the Gnutella net.

The one thing I hope happens is that when they implement the ability to DL torrents is that it also increases the ability of LimeWire to share large files. Many of the files I get from torrents are larger than LimeWires 1GB size limit and cannot be shared with LimeWire.

As far as freeloaders go they are always going to be there and why would you want to impliment share ratios on LimeWire. It's original purpose was as a file sharing app not a file trading app. It gained it's popularity through that philosophy. I believe allot of people do share while they are DL from the Gnutella net and while it may be lopsided DL more than UL it still helps.

I was doing some testing yesturday with 4.12.4 on Vista and was able to simultaneously DL 20 file between 5,000kb and 10,000kb in under 2 min. with LimeWire. And was able to DL a single file 390 MB in 21 min. what is wrong with that.

I do believe that implementing torrents may actually help the Gnutella net due to the fact that it will help get more good files for the net assuming they are going to be DL into the same incoming and shared folders. As Sgt has pointed out in previous post the Guntella net is being sabotaged and the only way to fight that is get more good files. Weather the Gnutella users can win this battle or not remains to be seen but hopefully we can. If you want to see how effective they actually are just do a search for XP it used to be you would get around 200 results now you will get between 5 and 10 thousand do a bitzi on them and no bitprint can be found. So they have effectively stooped sharing of that file.

So before long all that we may have may just be torrents. And as I have stated before LimeWire is by far the most efficient file sharing app I have ever used. It would be a shame if we lost the use of it because the net has become flooded with fake files. At least if the Gnutella net gets flooded LimeWire will survive and we will still be able to use it for torrents.
__________________ - Hot Games, Cool Apps

A little common sense goes a long way

Later Grandpa
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old August 4th, 2006
garbagefan2's Avatar
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Join Date: April 6th, 2006
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garbagefan2 is a great assister to others; your light through the dark tunnel

What's a torrent?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old August 4th, 2006
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Join Date: February 20th, 2005
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Posts: 3,012
Grandpa will become famous soon enough

Torrents are used by a different type of file sharing software. The link below will help to explain how they work. They are basically are a URL to a server where the file is being by others. kind of
__________________ - Hot Games, Cool Apps

A little common sense goes a long way

Later Grandpa
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