Lord of the Rings. Thanks for your observations re my problems with Java. I was hoping that someone , who like me was uograding to 5.3.6 had expeinced my problem and found an answer. I appreciate you comments re installation of Java , but feel that those internet companies such as Gruntella(Limewire) would have some control over those providing a system with which their customers were experiencing unnecessary difficulties. Java themselves seem to ignore e mails on the subject. My problem still exists, I cannot make use of Limewire system with which has itself always been a reliable system which is a great shame. I have tried to get help from Sun(java) could it be that with your exalted title (presumably your not based in New Zealand?) you have influence over and above of us mere mortals with the mighty Sun and give the required part of their anatomy a sound kicking. In other words I still seeking some magical aid. cordially David