Detail: BearShare connected to Gnutella. 'nuff said.
I don't think I have to go into how the BearShare BrowNosers are screwing things up too.

Sorry, it seems that moak left the GF, if you want to know why (if you don't already know), please come to the irc channels and ask him.

You just asked for what's wrong with the network, and i listed some facts that are discussed in many threads, they are not only my opinion...

If someone really doesn't care, he can install as much as he want, but i c it on this pc (a multi user pc) where i have to remove accidently installed spyware (e.g. by my sister) every 2 days.

The problem are not people who don't care, the problem are people wo don't KNOW it!

If you'd install a programm, would you uncheck "CommonName Toolbar" for example (or would you try to remove it if it's automatically installed)?

The first question is easy- if you want to implement it, you can do it, if you want to add your ideas, you have to be member of the small community of developers, and if the protocol doesn't fit your needs, you don't have to use it.

bad features...hm... i haven't thought much about that yet, maybe it could work like this: If a member of this community implements a bad feature, he'll no longer be a member; if someone else implements a bad feature, his client will simply be incompatible.

I know it's not possible, but it should be a main goal to get near the 100%.
Developers don't need to implement all features, but if they are to far away from the other clients, they are incompatible because some features are *NEEDED*
They then have to search a solution, e.g. finding another protocol, or impementing these features.

That's really a problem, maybe we could switch some clients into a both-net mode, that they use the normal net, and have some ports free for building a test net, which is not directly connected to the user net (it would be about 1% more CPU usage to the users) - that's the price for new updated software.

No i meant GDC, the GnutellaDev Community, founded in #gnutelladev. It was a try to collect some developers and develop the clients with equal feature decisions etc.

There is a reason to leave the GDF, i repeat it: Vinnie!! Look in my posting you quoted to get the answer why he's the reason.

i forgot to say, pollings should be made in the member area, where the developers are, and here it is how it could work:

Someone has an idea, say SuperduperGIGApeers. He writes a description about it. Then, it will be discussed and changed in CHAT or FORUM, with a time limit, let's say 2 weeks. Then there's a poll where every member can chose what's best for him. At the end, say another week later, it's ready for implementing into the Developers.net, or if noone wants it, it will not be used.

Any questions?

Morgwen, please remove the unecessary flooding of Sephiroth quoting the entire post of Phantom81. Sephiroth, this type of deliberate obfuscation of the forum is what gets people the name of 'troll'. If you behave like one, people will call you one. Why don't you edit your post and remove the 30 lines of quote before Morgwen has to? The original post is immediately above your post, you should not quote the whole thing AGAIN immediately below your post.

I hate 'the' GDF and I've only read two messages there. I hate it because it is 'behind closed doors' - they do not promote it's existence, it is not listed in Yahoo - I found two or three other P2P discussion groups there, but not 'the' gdf.

Accept firstly that there is no 'the' gdf. There will never be a 'the' gdf. There are already too many other gdfs .. these need to be consolidated if other developers want to get anywhere. Make it someplace open and friendly. Don't go with this idea of having restricted members, expelling people etc. That is just childish.

The one criteria for whether something is considered is whether it makes sense. Post references and background information so people can understand your suggestions, and they will be considered if they make sense. If people post nonsense, contentless propoganda, just ignore them.

I make the above observations because I think that an open protocol should be developed in the open - it seems the only way. And so a culture needs to be adopted which is defensive of important information and ideas, and which reduces the flooding we see so much of in this forum.

By all means people should be able to give their opinions, but when it becomes repetition of things previously stated, please at most give a link to where it was previously stated.

In response to the question of how do you enforce well behaved clients in an open network, for the answer lets look at the internet in general. It is an open network - the only requirement for participation is to speak TCP/IP or your packets won't get routed onto the network.

So why is it that people aren't able to just bombard servers, send wrong packets etc? Well, they can, but the servers and all good network software which interfaces with the network are built defensively. They sanity check packets before passing or accepting them. A lot of time goes into this, and gnutella it seems is too young to have developed a lot of this, so 'exploits' such as passing encrypted packets are tolerated by the clients, when in fact they should not be.

Then there is the 'organised defensive response' technique - how does the internet deal with spammers? Well, in fact people who adminsiter mail gateways put a lot of time and effort into protecting you from spam, believe it or not. There is a forum news.admin.net-abuse on usenet with many subbranches for particular protocols. One of these deals with email spam. People who ALLOW the use of their email gateways for a significant amount of spam, find that mail coming from their gateway is blocked. This makes it annoying if they host people other than spammerss as well, eg if ibm allowed spammers to relay through their gateway, all the ibm staff would be up in arms because their business emails would not be answered or would bounce.

I hope you see the analogy I am trying to make here, Sephiroth - gnutella is growing up and needs to learn to start to behave itself, or it will die. Sad fact of life. There are plenty of competing protocols now with the same idea. The only thing gnutella has going for it (believe me!) is the large number of open source clients. If these guys die, then you have two or three big commercial clients, and that is no different to say fast-track - except fast-track was designed properly from the beginning, and works. There are lots of fast-tracks. There is only one gnutella.

So when the open source clients die, gnutella will be eaten by fast-track or something similar, and then you will be back to square one - lots of small clients trying to build a protocol from scraps of opensource software.

Make yourself a shortcut - go with the opensource software now and build on it sensibly, not higgledy piggledy two-weeks-thinking-before-we-implement-something-fashion.

For people eager to get 'things underway' there are plenty of things that can still be worked on while other things are being thrashed out.

I think LimeWire were unconsionable in bringing out SuperDuperPeers the way they did - effectively blocking older clients from 98% of their clients overnight. They should have phased it in gradually until other clients had accepted that the implementation they had chosen of ultrapeers was the right one and had started to build compatible clients, then reduce the number of connections to non-ultrapeer clients.

Yes, this results in less 'benefit' to the limewire clients who have done "ooh so much work" to 'improve the gnutella network'. But it is polite. Sorry, you may respond 'but this is business' - I respond 'b*ll*&%'. The most successful business people are also the most polite people you will meet. Having an eye for an opportunity is not the same thing as trying to bend the world to your will and pulling the wool over the eyes of your customers. That is very common, but by no means necassary for success.

Spamware IS evil. Spyware IS evil. In current implementations, the two are the same. Advertisers want to 'target' their ads, so the customer is spied on. Sorry, but it is a fact. So far this has been happening for too short a time to see the consequences. And like most computer crime, the consequences will be under-reported even in the rare cases that they are detected, because they are embarrassing.

A network free of commercial clients seems the only response at the moment, to all these problems. We are fighting a <B>threats</B>. It is not that the network is completely screwed right now, it is the fact that it looks like it is getting screwed, and if we don't do anything it will be screwed. It is not that people are completely spied on but it is the threat that they will be endlessly watched and marketed to in return for the priveledge of communication.

As you said, most people don't care. Most people don't care when they buy petrol that the environment is being screwed for profit. But luckily some do, and I'm thankful for it. The less that ordinary people care, the more extreme those who do care have to become when the threat is real and dire.

Nos

I do not know of any 30 line rule if a Mod askes(in morgwens case askes nicely) then ill be happy to go back and edit out the quotes when i see such a notice keep in mind that i dont visit these forums everyday.

The fact that you personally attack my past posts by calling them flooding, ask me to be modded, and then hint that im a troll.. Then you expect me to take you seriously?

The gdf and network resources should be more easily able to access and find them and it will happen eventually not like it can be done overnight. You only read two messages so you really dont know anything that goes on there.

You see the major difference between gnutella and networks like fasttrack is two things.

first its an OPEN NETWORK!! Is Fasttrack an open network? No.. Its a propierty network.

and second gnutella is a PROTOCOL not just a network.

So your whole open source is the only hope for the future isnt valid because its impossible for a few programs to gain total control of an open network because if other programs dont like anything then they can just go start their own network.

Spyware let me repeat this for the millionth time SPYWARE IS NOT A NETWORK ISSUE.. Its the users choice to use whatever program they want. If you can use whatever program you want then others deserve that same right without your interferance because you have no bussiness to worry about whats on other people's computer because it DOES NOT AFFECT YOU.

Also i think its important that gnutellahosts not limewire had the first implementation of a "ultrapeer" type system with there reflector.. In either case they only improve the network and dont have any negative because nodes that dont have ultrapeers just connect like normal. Also i think its important to mention that other programs will be compatible with Limewires implementation.

In the end I think your just making up problems as you go along. Also remember that Gnutella is a protocol and if you want a "commerical-free" network then go start one like openp2pnet. Whos going to stop you?

You do not need to "fix" the current network in any way and if you truely believe that this "network free of commercial clients" will be as great as you claim it will be and it will be people's "only hope" in the future then im sure that you will have no problem in getting people to use it without resorting to bashing the current network, programs and etc at all.

let me repeat this for the zillionth time, YES IT IS!
I don't want to contribute to the spam/spyware companies in any way! I don't want to be part of their support network.
When you connect to me using BearShare you are using my CPU to help support BearShare spyware.
Get that crap off Gnutella!
The only way to do it is to block them all!
Block, block, block!

Sephiroth...

Nosferatu is right you are flooding... you repeat over and over again the same! You called others trolls too, you are whining EVERY time when somebody DON´T agree with you that the people attack you... do you think we can take you seriously???

How old are you? 15???

Morgwen

Morg,
You'll notice Moak has done the same thing. I don't know how many threads he's started or taken onto his anti-bearshare/limewire soapbox. We've all read it and at this point it's just trolling.

If posting what you accuse me of posting the same thing over and over isnt that what many others here including yourself have done too? Much of the "problems" and etc listed by other people here have also been repeated many many times over in the past here. Yet im the only one "flooding."

This isnt the first time you have called me a "whiner" for posting and supporting my opinions which disagree with yours. Why your allowed to get away with all this is beyond me.

Also please find here in this thread where i called someone a troll..

Im sick of dealing with this everytime i post here and it isnt what some people want to hear..

Prove your words. how many, which soapbox?

I don´t know which language you understand???

You are a whiner because YOU whine every time that somebody attacks you... in this thread you said that Nosferatu has attacked you, WHERE??? Yes he disagrees but where he has ATTACKED YOU???

I never said you called someone in THIS thread a troll, but you have done it and it doesn´t matter in which thread!!!

Yes I am sick too, every time we discuss something you come here and tell us your wisdom (this part is OK!!!) after someone disagrees you whine that the people attack you (this part is childish!). If you want to discuss with us act like a man not like a kid!

Morgwen