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Do you accept Spyware? I think spyware clients are a shame for gnutella community, but please judge on your own and vote! Woken up through the current "spyware hype" in the Limewire forum, I recently scanned again some of my PCs - and surprisingly found some Spyware EXE/DLLs. Oops, I thought I have been very carefull. I have to say: Shame on Bearshare and LimeWire that you take part on this dirty business! To be fair, dont forget that Vinnie Falco's Bearshare was bundled with Sypware since months, but also other filesharing apps such as Audiogalxy, eDonkey, Kazza and more come with 3rd party software today. All together fool newbies which don't know what "Addins" in reality are: Paid spyware parasites. Very ironical when sofwtare developer answer "we didn't know" or "our Addins are no spyware". Just read some details about Gator and eZula which are very "IN": more about sypware and the trouble [2] [3]. Money making isn't everything, if some can't find a serious business concept, then at least don't complain about a bad reputation. Saying this, I hope that portals as Zeropaid will show which client is bundeld with spyware! The next days I will advice all my friends and customers which use MS Windows to use AdAware and avoid Spyware software wherever possible. Spyware brings expensive firewall concepts "ad absurdum", could steal confidential information or alter shown websites without notice, best idea: Do avoid infected filesharing clients, choose another one! One advantage of Gnutella is that there are many good clients. Some open words, Moak |
No spyware, please I loathe spyware and won't let it near any of my computers. One of the Gnutella programs (not mentioned here to avoid flamewars) nuked my TCP/IP stack <newdotnet is NOT fun>, and I had to reinstall the OS to get on the Net again. I was not happy about that. I won't touch spyware, no way. |
My main problem with it is the spyware usually runs even when not using the program that installed it (and often hangs around even if you uninstall the original). The people who write the spyware itself (I'm not talking about the programs that bundle it necessarily) care nothing about the users except how they can further exploit them. Most of these programs are very poorly written, eat up your system resources, and cause crashes and instability galore. I imagine many are also extremely insecure and full of holes that could make you vulnerable to any half-assed 133t h4x0r. To me they're as bad as a virus or Trojan and should be just as illegal. Nothing should ever be placed on a system without full user consent. These programs absolutely rely on users being unaware of how they work and what they truly do. Software developers that use them are making a deal with the devil - one that will always cost in the long run. It's basically like a giant neon sign to all future investors saying: "We have no legitimate business plan or source of income". |
Even if I know that many spywares auto load during simple navigation with cookies ect., (and for this i regulary sweep my drives) I am not willing to keep symbionthic programs... |
Hi Carlo! You can ask me everytime which progs are infected and which not... in many cases ad-aware is a very good friend! :) Morgwen |
Yes, I use that for sweeping. |
Hi Kath! The best is every time after diconnecting from internet! Morgwen |
I won't applaud BearShare for bundling spyware, but at least users are given an option to decline its installation without disabling the application or being invaded by hidden files or programs. Personally, I avoid any and all 'free' programs bundled with ads or spyware. I'm more than willing to purchase clean versions of the application. |
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Ivan "In the dark we make a brighter light" |
Permanent Spyware - The Spyware story Hi again! When you install programs that come with spyware... and uninstall it afterwards, don't believe the spyware is gone. No, the spyware will usually be still on your computer, and stay for ever. The uninstaller will NOT remove it! Great features, yeah. *cough* Take a fresh copy of AdAware today and clean your system. :) This Gnutella spyware story is becoming more ironic, the more knowledge I get of it. If you're interested continue reading: The Gnutella spyware story.... a modern tale. (Approved for all audiences) In a network not far away from here some vendors needed money in lack of a busines model. They had no idea how to make money with file sharing, so they thought, hey let's bundle spyware tools to my installer and name them "Addins". That sounds cool, the newbies will love it and I get some good bucks from the Spyware industry. Said and done. Everyone should be happy... they thought. Whenever someone asks questions, they lie about the existens of spyware or name it harmless "commercials ads". When someone continues asking "but we found Spyware", they tell us "you are spreading rumours" or "creating new FBI X-cases" to make us silent. The vendor continues hardly denying the existence of any spyware. After a while more people confirming spyware does exist. Some news sites and two webmasters of anti-spyware sites underlined the existance, the danger and the damage caused by spyware. Suddenly silence. More serious spyware is found and we still hear the vendor, let's call him Chris, singing a silent "no it's no spyware" or a little bit later "we didn't know, we are nice guys and everything is optional". Funny, because that's the next lie. Or as some people would say, a very creative way of telling the truth. What happened? One spyware tool was silently always installed, without asking for permission or telling the user. Some people stopped to trust Chris now, some still believe him. At this time another vendor, let's call him Vinnie, is congratulating the first one. Vinnie is telling us that Addins are a good solution, a final solution! And both tell each other how great they are. Hmm, he slighlty forgot to mention that "Addins" are Spyware. Now you wonder? Yes that would be the normal reaction for sure. But what you didn't know, that this other vendor has a long and well know history of spyware. Vinnie bundled spyware to his product long before Chris did and caused a lot of annoyance, perhaps even more than Chris did. A quick flashback: the same story, denying spyware, fooled users and many corrupted computers because of a bad installer (which resulted in a complete Windows reinstall for many users, urks). Finally Vinnie made the spyware full optional at install time. Okay the spyware is still there and will infect hundreds of newbie users which still don't know that Addins are spyware parasites... but at least this vendor has learned something. Probably he lost hundreds of users and gained a bad reputation too. Back to the first vendor of our story. Chris is still not sure if he wants to learn from the past... and continues to ship his new version with Spyware. Chris is not on the dark side of Gnutella, if you ask now. No, no! He does a lot of interesting research for the Gnutella community, he is a friendly guy helping other developers and makes his whole work open source. Wow, nice guy we would normally say. The only problem is, in Spyware he sees a way of paying his bills and we know bills must be paid. "How sad", some people say and stop using his Gnutella client. On Chris's homepage he still denies that spyware is spyware. He wants to make people believe that "Addins" are no risk, he probably also believes in it. So he writes on his homepage in the security section: "We do not consider this bundled software to be spyware because it does not report any personal information. Users are not required to install this software but it helps defer costs". Do you wonder again? Sure a lot of people do, after what we undigged up to now. More people believed that Chris and Vinnie have a very creative handling of the truth. Meanwhile some interested users investigated the truth on their own, not believing in vendor promises anymore. They found some websites and pro-privacy hacker which provided more background information, just look around you will find it too. Finally it is confirmed that not only one spyware tool is bundled, many of them are... you can imagine more spyware, more money. Also the so called "Addins" get not uninstalled when you uninstall the Gnutella program. Users that unfortunately believed in vendors like Chris and his friend Vinnie will be spyed out for ever (or until the next harddisk crash or next installed windows version)! Oh wait, there are more embarrassing details. Some "Addins" come with the ability to get the newest spyware tools automatically! For example one 'hidden secret' of those sweet and highly technical parasites is, that some can automatically download more executable spyware code. Wow, without notice or permission. Don't wonder, but I think you don't wonder anymore. Those spyware tools are designed to spy out users much longer than Chris and Vinnie are in business and have a long history of abuse and improvement. Perhaps even they didn't know. They never looked inside the internal spyware code and they don't have a clue of what backdoor features are included. For example one spyware tool is named Gator. It's very smart and does download more spyware code in a tricky way. Whenever the user goes online it might use a minimum bandwith to download more executable code. The user will not notice it. The end of the story? No, stay tuned for part two when we tell more about Vinnie, Chris, the big boss behind and a new shining knight that fights for Gnutella and suddenly falls again. Expect loyal users of Vinnie starting a unholy war against other vendors, some others denying the past, some fighting on the ground of P2P, with more lies, more propaganda and more action!!! Maybe we see more spyware creatures and maybe Trinitry in a naked role. Who's Trinitry? I don't know yet, the future isn't written, I thought it sounds cool for a teaser of the next episode and I was trying to be creative with the truth too. :) To be continued.... PS: I guess you don't wonder why I wrote this tale... I'm angry about some people trying to fool us. I understand that programmers need money, I'm a programmer too and need to pay my rent or buy my food, daily caffeine (Coke) and high bandwith internet. But I first don't like people who tries to fool me and second I don't like dirty money. Right now the Gnutella developer community is a crowd of many volunteers, who did improve Gnutella free and together. Only two vendors try to make money with Gnutella, both do not have the most famous client yet. I don't want to be unfair, actually fairness was the reason for this story. I highly appreciate any work and research for the Gnutella community, but not for any cost and not without truth. Feel free to call me a rabble rouser now, I don't care. If Chris and Vinnie would be real persons in the real world I would say, please let's work together and find a way for paying your bills. Link to AdAware again |
Don't believe the hype So far I haven't seen any proof for gator (&c) being an evil spytool, as some people like to state. Surely, I wouldn't install it (for a couple of reasons), but I don't believe those tools are as dangerous as you think. I've not seen any log-files that actually indicate Gator is doing any worse than tracking which websites you visit and how often you visit them. If you are so afraid of spyware (paranoia?!), - don't use proprietary software. |
Wohoo! Great! Thanks for your efforts to summarize the story making it nice to read. Carlo |
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Let's ask it another way - why should any user allow such parasites on their system? What benefit is there to offset the potential risks? Would you want to give yourself pinworms just because they don't really hurt you too much? Would you eat free food if it was knowingly infected with tapeworms? Would you be happy if such food only had a vague reference to "extra added proteins" on the label? "Proprietary" products in other industries could never get away with this kind of abuse. It's sort of become the V.D. of the software industry. These days, If you're not very careful what programs you go playing around with, you may find yourself with a case of something nasty. I'm sure these developers would love for people to start thinking of parasitic software as "normal" and acceptable (or at least inevitable). However, commercial software has existed successfully for years without resorting to such sleazy tactics. It's no more than just a poor excuse for lack of financial planning - anyone can be popular by giving stuff away. They could try shareware or donations *before* going with this stuff, but once "the spyware hits the fan" they can kiss any user loyalty goodbye. I find it odd that they seem so surprised to discover betraying their users actually has negative consequences! Vendors who embrace spyware are shouting their failure to the world - it's the last gasp of dying companies and a red flag to any potential VC. The Gators of the world, like vultures, will be sure to pick the bones clean. |
Re: Don't believe the hype From http://www.simplythebest.net/info/spyware.html Gator helps you to fill out forms and remember usernames and passwords of sites you frequently visit. You may even have credit card information readily available when you wish to purchase something online. A very dangerous thing to do. Your personal information is stored on your computer in an encrypted file. Gator accesses this personal information, using your IP address. Gator targets consumers based on site visitation and historical behavior. Gator provides aggregate statistics about its customers, traffic patterns and related site information to third-party vendors. As banners from sites you visit are being served, Gator will show their advertiser's banners instead. Trickler (a modul of Gator) is an "install stub", a small program that is installed with the application you really wanted. (Gator almost always appears on your system due to installing OTHER software, and not the installer available from Gator's website.) When installed, Trickler inserts a Run key in your Registry so that it is silently and automatically loaded every time you start your computer. Trickler runs hidden and very slowly downloads the rest of Gator/OfferCompanion onto your system. It is suggested that this "trickling" activity is intended to slip under the user's radar, the steady, low usage of bandwidth going unnoticed. |
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So what's the big deal? |
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I know how much spytools exists... Do you really want to compare cookies and spytools??? Cookies donīt download exe code, they donīt connect to the internet without permission... Do you will tell us now if somebody kills a man its ok for me that I kill one too? John it seems you know that spytools arenīt "good" that is the reason why you donīt install them but many newbies donīt know what is going on... they believe internet is funny and all people are lovely... but the truth is internet is a risk today, so we have to inform newbies about the risks... and than every user can decide what they want... but without this knowledge they are helpless... So tell me John where is your problem? If you donīt care about these tools donīt read our posts, donīt comment them... If spytools are such a good thing why "you" donīt install them? Morgwen |
Why I don't install spyware? Simple, they aren't out for linux, they eat up bandwidth by downloading ads and they usually try to display the ads they downloaded to me. However, I don't believe Gator (&c) is truly harmful. |
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simply the best way, its no problem for you, but you suggest all "windows" user to install this crap... Gator and other spytools are a really security risks... but only for windows users... John if you believe they are harmful, I know thousands of people who said they "might" be really dangerous... and many of this people arenīt idiots, some of them are really good programmers... So if you donīt have a problem with this tools use them or not but lets us do our support! Morgwen |
More spyware BTW, ad aware has also detected spyware on Radiate Advertising, a program that comes with Go!Zilla. Since Gator is also promoted by Go!Zilla, i'm not quite surprised. I agree, leaving all your personal info and passwords in an encripted file is a dangerous thing to do. Anyone could enter your computer, take that file, and do a mess in your computer, email account or whatever. I uninstalled Radiate Advertising and I couldn't get Go!Zilla to work any more. But the truth is I never liked the last version. Ivan "In the dark we make a brighter light" |
If I don't belive in a problem, there is no problem? No, there is a big difference between cookies which will be send back to one webpage and a hidden systematic data mining together with collected confidental private data and user profiles given to third parties. Last is what national secret agencies do = spying. John is like a young cat. My teacher told me a story from her little cat when I was in school, her cat tried once to hide from my teacher by looking away. The cat thought, when I can not see someone they can't see me. |
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Yes, - they *might* be. And Windows XP *might* contain a backdoor for the NSA. That is the difference between possibility and fact. Any possible danger you see in Gator (&c) also applies to any other internet related software. Gator is not the devil and it is as much of a security risk as any other internet related applications (including ICQ or Morpheus for example). |
Offtopic John, I wonder if you ever met Kultus, Sephiroth, anti-bearshare? I think about casting all of you for the second part of the story. *g* |
I don't like the fact that I know spyware is running on my PC, but it's the price to pay for free programs, I guess. |
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You say your opinion and Moak says his... Morgwen P.S.: But sometimes I think the same like Moak... |
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Linux is free... without spyware... and many others sharing progs... Morgwen |
Well linux is without *spyware* (or adware) for now (if you don't count opera), but I don't think that will last forever. |
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It will! Because Linux its developed by hundreds of developers all over the world in their free time... if there will be a "spyware" linux version, I have to smile... I will switch to another distrubution or I will ask a friend to compile it! You know Linux is open source its allowed to compile it, as it allowed for Limewire... and we say the people there is spyware into, donīt use the offical version - use compiled versions... So John now tell me why should I use "spytools" infested open source products? Let me repeat we inform the people... and they choose the way... The Limewire version of Linux is free, and the Windows version donīt work without (only a compiled version! :) )... So tell me John why should the Windows user pay your software, and why donīt you pay for it? Morgwen |
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I can't look at the source code of any linux app (borlands kylix for example) nor is there always a open-source version available. - Basically it would be possible to create commercial versions of Linux, sth like a Microsoft Linux (Windows XP is based on a BSD kernel which is more or less a linux-cousin). As long linux has got a small market-share, companies sometimes give linux versions of their software away for free, but if that ever changed (for example if linux had a market-share of 10% of the desktops), they would consider making money with linux products and they would also write adware/spyware for linux. |
Linux + GNU + Open Source Good that we have GNU and many different open source movements together with a high count of alternative free software! Free of spyware and marketing promises. Btw I thought XP is based on Win NT/2000 kernel and only winsock(2) is "borrowed" from BSD networking code? |
Yes Moak! XP is an improvent on NT/2000... But John cannot know all... but he thinks so... Morgwen |
After announcing Windows NT Microsoft hired UNIX developers and they bought into a UNIX company named Santa Cruz Operation. In addition Windows NT complies with the POSIX (Portable Operating System Interface for Unix) standards. Windows NT had a lot more in common with UNIX than with MS-DOS and although it is just a rumour that NT contained pieces BSD-code, they were at least inspired by it. |
Miaaoo! :D Morgwen |
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Coming back to topic. I wonder if even John still denies the trouble of spyware? Before you answers.... read what the developer of Bearshare wrote at gnutella.com: "Gator is an extremely underhanded company. We repeatedly turned down their deals because they always had something sneaky up their sleeves. Yes, Gator will install Web3000 and even Onflow. They neglected to tell LimeWire about it." Thx for honesty! Read the full comment at http://www.gnutella.com/forums/general/34 |
Unclear point! Still one unclear point about spytools in limewire is cydoor, the only non optional component. LimeCrew states it does not diclose personal information; on the other side others say that it is one of the worst things on the net... Personally I believe that lime crew says this honestly, but is it really like that? Is cydoor (or this cydoor product) only a ad delivery system? Please respond, ___________________________Carlo out. |
AFAIK Limewire made them now also full optional, great! |
Do mac users need to worry?? NM |
Re: Do mac users need to worry?? Nope. At least not until Microsoft buys off enough legislators to make alternative OS'es illegal under the DMCA! ;-) |
Spyware/Trojan fiasko For the records... recent spyware bundler did deliver a new trojan/spyware (DLDER) together with their clients. Those have been our old and well known spyware friends: - Bearshare (Gnutella clone) - LimeWire (Gnutella clone) - Kazaa (FastTrack clone) - Grokster (FastTrack clone) If you did recently use one of those client, make sure you use a _new_ anti virus (TrendMicro) or anti spyware tool (AdAware) today! You won't see any warning on the webpages of those vendors, but the existance was proofen on many webpages: http://wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,49430,00.html http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-8335745.html http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/intern...y.ap/index.html http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../01012002a.php http://www.bearshare.net/forum/showt...&threadid=8252 http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=6423 http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...&threadid=6781 It seems those vendors do not have controll over their spyware, sorry boys, but isn't it true? The new trojan/spyware was allways installed without asking the user (non optional), the vendors rated this piece of software 'Adware'. If you don't like Spyware - don't use it. Choose a spyware free gnutella client! PS: LimeWire finally issued an official statement: http://www.limewire.com/index.jsp/trojan |
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Gnutella on Slashdot Now there is the second article on Slashdot about Spyware in Gnutella: "The corporate response is that they [Kazaa, Limewire, Grokster] literally didn't know what was in these secondary applications that they were providing to be downloaded and installed alongside their primary program. Believe it if you wish." Read the full story |
This is the real danger of ad/spy ware. All the assurances a developer may give are worthless if they themselves don't even know what's being installed. Perhaps we need to ask the Lime developers - how can we ever trust them after they *admit* they've no control over their own product? How do they know other nasties aren't already lying in wait on the HD's of their unsuspecting users? Even when the initial install is ok, there's always the chance the adware will do a behind the scenes "software update" and change that. These companies are the lowest of the low. This would be illegal done by a person rather that a corporation - these guys are just crying for a class action suit. Developers who fall into their clutches are dooming themselves. You can be sure the slimeware execs will sacrifice and destroy the Limewires of the world before they themselves are finally drowned in their own filth. |
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Developers bundling spyware with their products are a lot like a virus writers "bundling" virii with dropper programs. |
No spying here... 1 Attachment(s) After 67hours of step by step, routine, by routine, instruction by insruction, dis-assembling I am very please to say that ver 2.04 of limewire is very clean, and contains no spyware, unless u include a small transmission that send what appears to be only the version number, and build. I dis-miss this as a accecptable function, and not spyware. As far as Whom ever actually programs the code, there is still an issue that I found debugging the earlier versions, that they overlap the stack space, with the Code segment, which can cause freeze ups, under circumstances where the data segment code flows into the code segment, all pushed registers and pointers are lost , thus ending your session with Limewire. Im supprised that they overlooked this, since MASM did detect it immediatley...... :) |
If the program swaps any iformation without consent of the user it should be illegal. |
did u think before u wrote that ? 1 Attachment(s) Ok, first things first buddy, most software does send information without you ever verifing its content, Windows XP is a prime example, when a crash occurs there is an option to send information about your system, including SwapFile content, register settings, and some memory areas, Is this spyware? no infact it is not. other programs include, Norton (most products), and more.. So wake up buddy, Im telling you, Limewire 2.04 is clean, except for what I have already said about stack errors. and a minor script error which is never delt with, when java debugging is OFF....! |
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Hey, pal! I'm awake and aware. lol Just because lots of software does it makes it all right? I consider it an invasion of my privacy frankly. It's not hard to put up some annoying little window pop up to let the user know exactly what kind of info is being requested and transmitted. Just like everything else, a little "accept SPYWARE from this issuer all the time" button can be available. I've used Microsoft Internet explorer error reporting for quite some time. Every time it wants to send an error report I am given the option not to send it. And it's a program that I CHOSE to have on my system. So wake up yourself, BUD! Its an invasion of my privacy! :D |
(oops, I forgot to put in my username and password, bud!) |
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