No not at all.

I dont really believe that gnutella is far behind technology. All the other File Sharing programs have some part which is centralized where gnutella isnt. Gnutella is different than other networks and realize that gnutella is a protocol and not just a file sharing network. The potential for gnutella goes way beyond file sharing.

Its a young protocol still it has made some good progress in the past year, the outlook for improvements to the network are looking even better now than a year ago. Theres newer programs and new developers coming to gnutella than ever before most of which are with commerical interests..

The only problem with gnutella is that areas like the GDF are kinda hidden away on yahoo and infomation isnt very well organized and easy to access and find for newer developers.

But things are pretty fair, documentation of proposals are freely avaible, no one is left out at the gdf unless they choose not to go which thats their decision so they cant really complain about the outcome, and programs are working together to improve the network.

Things like clumping together of servents and etc. arent that bad it lets developers add some unique features to there programs without affecting the network too much or because its not supported by the rest of the network. In the end a person can still download off of them and that is what matters.

If you want to stick to the issues and not bring in program poltics then i have no problem with discussing gnutella with you or anyone else..

New linux OpenSource P2P client - gtk-frutella
 

This reminds me of the free speech movement at berkley.
Up till now you had no choice to be able to support commercial third parties or not, now you do.
It will be up to the users what clients they block. So now you better behave properly in front of the users or lose your "market share". Cluster, spam or spy on people and you are blocked!
How's that for competition?
Moak, you have always had good ideas about the protocol and improvement. Not all ideas can be added or adopted but you do spark good thinking towards new features so keep it up. You have a good point about fasttrack, we should talk more about what features they have that might be easily added to Gnucleus. Tell me what you have found that we can add.
Then you agree that users need a choice, good.
OK, so Morgwen hates Sephiroth and Sephiroth hates Morgwen, we get it, we got it. You both have different points of view, good. We get that too.

So now, what about the subject at hand?

A "Socialist-type structured gnutella" may be a bit far since most socialist structures people have seen this century include greed, a "upper class" of people so it falls apart.
I am worried that we have another commercial interest in Morpheus and we haven't yet seen how bad it can get, depending on how bad this new guy is. So let's stop it now before it gets so bad we can't stop it.
The newer Gnucleus version of this is almost done now, I am just testing it a bit more. You will like it. Well, most of you will. It gives you a choice you didn't have before.

Sephiroth wisdom: "The users choose which ones survive and which ones fail thats the "invisible hand" at work.. "
OK, so you do agree with us!

bbp = blatant bearshare propaganda

I can see the corporate geeks trying to tell everyone how they are providing this or that whoopy doo service, like a open source client cant do it, should be interesting

You should frame this.

If the feature was released in source code form everyone could use it and thus no clumping would be required and that would be better for the network and everyone on it.

lots of dropped packets
 

I'm trying the gtk-frutella client I posted at
http://www.linuks.mine.nu/gtk-frutella

and I'm seeing a lot of dropped packets. Is this a problem for gnucleus users as well?

I'm not getting very good search results, but can download and see searches going by.

I think this is the hostcache's fault

24.234.19.159:6347

because it was working OK for me for the last few days, and I got someone else to try it .. they got the same result.

Is it because the hostcache is overloaded?

Can more people post their IPs in the ip thread please? Preferably 24 hr users ..

I am on a 4-hour modem connection, so won't post mine.

Wow, you really do expect to get everything for free in life.

Hope the real world doesn't crush you too bad when (if) you ever get out into it.

My ONLY statement in this thread was that I hate Sephiroth, so I have nothing to add! :rolleyes:

Morgwen

P.S.:

I use only eDonkey recently - perhaps I should go there and discuss about improvements... Gnutella is dying in my eyes - thanks to Vinnie!

Some "gnutella maniac" you turned out to be :p

gtk-frutella! you go man! cool!

Yes...

I think I am or I was... a gnutella maniac...

supporting Gnutella for over a year, waiting for improvements, fighting against spyware and trying to change something...

I am tired...

Morgwen

Maybe time for a Hawaiian vacation ;)

Yes,

send me the money! :)

Morgwen

Okay, I'll cash in some of my gnutella stock :D

Developers as Viniie care about $$$, not about Gnutella.
VIP Bearshare trolls as Sephiroth care about propaganda, not about real information.

So in return you post anti-bearshare and anti-sephiroth propaganda.

You haven't proven either of these accusations, and you haven't offered any real information. You've only given conjecture regarding what someone else's priorities may be, and you've claimed that conjecture to be true and correct.

And don't try to say that your statement wasn't propaganda. This is what dictionary.com has to say about the word:
Your statements obviously fit the above definition. So it appears you should work on your own poor system of ethics before attacking what you perceive someone else's to be.

it is counter propaganda.

Instead of complaining about ME, why don't you complain about Sephiroth and Bearshare and please give up your comfortable neutrality where you hide and instead speak out what YOU think?

I've made it pretty clear what I think.

And the proper way to counter propaganda is to educate people with real information, not by spreading more propaganda.

Two information:
1. Developers as Viniie care about $$$, not about Gnutella.
2. VIP Bearshare trolls as Sephiroth care about propaganda, not about real information.

If you don't agree, we can talk about this two points.

That is not information, that is conjecture.

And right now you are the one trolling.

Don't force your opinion to others!

Perhaps you may think Vinnie is not harming Gnutella and most Bearshare VIPs are not distributing Bearshare propaganda... okay, you're right.. but come with arguments, not calling someone a troll. If you don't discuss, but hide behind a pseudo intelectuel neutrality without naming content, then you're just arrogant. If you want an exchange of informations and arguments, open your mind.

So far this is all you've tried to do. You haven't given anything real to discuss. Instead you've just bitched without giving any real argument or content.

Everything users say is not worth it or anything real to discuss about? Open your mind a little bit more, try it? Perhaps then you can understand other opinions and talk with someone NOT against someone.

Well you still haven't actually said anything.

Don't get me wrong, you've whined plenty. But you haven't given any evidence or content to back it up. So you still haven't put anything out there to really discuss.

Maybe it is your mind which is closed.

No not really. I think that gnuella is doing fine the way it is, you are not forced to use a commerical programs, you can still download off commerical programs and likewise, documentation and information is freely avaible to anyone and all are welcomed to talk about gnutella improvements on the gdf if they so choose so...

I dont see where the problem is. Your complaining because other people choose to use a commerical program? So you want to get rid of the commerical programs and force people to use all open source or non-commerical programs... How is taking choices away from the user by limiting or even getting rid of programs fair to anyone?

Every problem on gnutella cant be solved by throwing "free-code" at it.. Remember only the best programs surivive the bad ones dont.. Truely bad programs shouldnt be expected to be contantly stringed along by other good ones.. Instead the bad programs should improve and compete with the better ones to draw users or fail..

Look at the internet before it was commerized.. Do you really think that you would be able to do everything you do on the web now if it had stayed non-commerical/educational? I think not. Without commerical companies you wouldnt even have the PC...

As for unregistered people. I dont take insults/accusations from "unregistered" people seriously especially since all they want to do is start trouble and anyone intelligent wouldnt take them seriously anyways.. so why should i.

I dont hate morgwen. If he wants to make an ** of himself then fine im not him so i dont really care.. If thats how he chooses to express himself then thats his choice, im not going to take him seriously and over time i dont think that others will take him seriously either..

Sephiroth, we all know what a looser you are!

Go back to bearshare.net and tell your lies there!

For everyone claiming that someone else is lying:
 

Quote the "lie", explain why you think it is a lie, give your version of the truth, and site and post links to your proof.

If not you don't have a leg to stand on.

Not the best ones survive, the clients with the most money survive!

Xolox was the best Gnutella client and this client didn´t survive because the developers had no money!

Yes all developers can bundle spyware and hire more devlopers and claim then they are the best!

Morgwen

Keep in mind that "best" is still a matter of opinion.

Xolox was the best Gnutella client and it is still in wide use, hence it's not quite dead yet.

That the developer has not enough money to continue it means that with improvements made to other clients Xolox will cease to be one of the best.

Hence, the death of xolox will come not directly from not having money but from the process of not-having-money > to no-longer-being-improved > to falling-behind-in-relative-quality > to no-longer-being-the-best > to death.

The ability to hire full time developers to work on a piece of software isn't a bad thing. You are more likely to get a better product that is upgraded more frequently out of it.

Anyone can claim to be the best, but what matters is if their users are happy with the product. If the users aren't happy, they won't keep using it, then the product will die. If the users are happy, then something is being done right, and the product will live (maybe even making to the "best" catagory).

No it is not a bad thing to hire full time coders!

My point is the way how they make money, if their product is REALLY good they should ask money for it and not bundle spyware!

What do you think how good Xolox would be today if they had done this? But they never wanted to make dirty money - ask Pasman if you want!

Morgwen

How they make the money may be ethically suspect to some, but that fact doesn't diminish the quality of the end product. And asking for donations isn't a very good way to keep a business afloat (that is basic economics).

If Pasman had done this with Xolox and kept up its development I think xolox would most likely be one of the best gnutella clients available. But we'll probably never know just how much potential was really there.

And as far as Pasman not wanting to make money in that manner, good for him. It respectable that someone can choose a system of ethics and stick to them.

But not everyone shares the same system of ethics. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they do is wrong or evil. It just means they're different.

I imagine that the way in which I make my money is not the way in which most people here make theirs. That doesn't mean I'm a better person then they are or vice versa. It just means we're different.

Of course NOT! You should SELL your product!

Spyware money is dirty money, you can say what you want mrgone...

I hope there will be laws against such tools soon!

Yes we all have differents way to make money some sell drugs, some steal it and other go to work and earn it! :rolleyes:

But there is a good solution and a bad solution!

Morgwen

mrgone likes to talk without content. just making down every new argument and new idea, a boring destructive rhetoric trick. can someone with an own opinion speak up?

Some people sell their product via distributing advertisments. And the line between spyware and adware is one the shifts depending who you ask. The stuff that is really hard core spyware already is illegal in most areas.

We do all have different ways of making money. Some people paint houses, some people are in marketing, some people play the stock market. It is not up to you to say whether any one of those people has earned their paycheck.

The analogy of stealing or selling drugs equating to bundling third party adware (or whatever *you* want to call it) is invalid. Stealing and selling drugs are illegal practices, third party bundling is not.

What's the matter? Can't stand up to your ideas being challenged?

If you have a problem with people making you think about things in a different light then you really need to open your mind.

Bundling spyware should be illegal!

This was my last statemnet in this thread!

Morgwen

Great, people like Mrgone turn Gnutellaforums into Bearshare.net with brawl, rumours and half-wisdom. Good work, you are helping Vinnie and his holly VIPs to kill Gnutella and punch any seriousity out of this place. no, we are not challanged, fight with Vinnie, he likes aggresive minds. you can only make things down. better create something and if you can't let others create something, but keep your destructive mind out of it.

Why don't you get it? We have source code that does everything the other "pay for" clients do. Now all you do is add a little feature here or there. It's not that hard and if each developer puts in a little time it will be great.
No $$ needed.
Money makes development faster, but open source always catches up.
The difference on Gnutella is the "pay for" clients not only suck the computer resources from their users, they suck it off other users who don't CHOSE to be sucked!

AND THAT SUCKS! :)

On another subject, what made XoloX so wonderful? Isn't "swarming" now working the same?

BTW: It looks like about three or four people are posting under Unregistered, so don't think you are talking to the same guy every time.

You should choose a nick! :)

Morgwen

Maybe it should be, but until then the analogy is still invalid.

Cool! Now you get the idea, make something that can actually compete, not something that just block out other users.

How are they sucking your resources? Did Vinnie come over and install BearShare on your system against your will?

Xolox was wonderful for a number of reasons. Multi-source downloads (the definition of the term "swarming" is being used in different ways by different people so I choose not to use it here), automatic re-queries, simplicity, etc., all came about in Xolox way ahead of other clients.

That kind of innovation is what's needed in gnutella today. Yeah, so other people have caught up and are using these ideas now, but there isn't nearly as much progress as what xolox spurred.

And it is that kind of competition and innovation that brings a healthy future to gnutella. Not people whining about spyware and closed source clients. And certainly not by being so immature as to block other clients in a vain attempt to compete via unethical means.

Try making it better instead of just throwing a tantrum.

Flame wars suck. Post facts, not opinions.
 

Listen.

We don't care who likes who or who hates who. We don't care what you think is the best or worst client.

We DO care what you think makes a particular client good or bad.

We DO care WHY you think it is a good or bad idea to split off a project to block commercial clients. But we don't care if all you think is 'it's bad'. And we don't want to see EITHER unresearched bullshit or blatant lies.

<A HREF="http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=358">Bearshare takes up bandwidth sending messages which do not fit the protocol specs, masquerading as Queries and Query Hits. Non-bearshare clients just pass these on.</A> Why? Why not drop any malformed message such as these?

These packets ARE NOT documented. Mr Gone, you either don't know what you are talking about, ***. Sephiroph, same deal. Quite possibly these packets are collecting aggregate information which the Bearshare users have not been properly informed of (I haven't read the license).

But Vinnie's story does not hold water - one minute they're for distributing version information (why?) and the next they're for telling about how many files the user shares ... why aren't they in clear text? Or RLE, if it's really about size? Or at least documented, if they're such an improvement.

Why not block clients which block clients? Bearshare supposedly keeps a port reserved for bearshare clients. I.E. it is blocking non-bearshare clients. Why shouldn't we block it in return?

By changing our connect string, any properly behaving client should NOT allow us to connect. Some posters here seem to think we are getting the best of both worlds, we are not. We are trying to totally separate ourselves from the Gnutella netork, but continue using and developing the protocol so that all users can get the benefit of any code we develop.

If you can point out where our traffic is leaking into the Gnutella network, or vice versa, please do. Otherwise, refrain from claiming that we are affecting Gnutella's network in any way whatsoever.

Please do not troll, please do not feed the trolls. This forum is not professional at all, and gives a bed image to gnutella development (if that is possible after the advent of Vinnie.)

Morgwen, a moderator is not supposed to get knee-deep fighting for one side or another. At the most you should be filtering out swear words and things like that. If you want to fight, you should give up your moderator job.

Nos

Re: Flame wars suck. Post facts, not opinions.
 

And yet you find it impossible to quote what I said that was either uninformed or a lie.

d!ckhead
 

No, I just thought it was pretty self-evident .. and I couldn't be bothered trawling back through this whole long thread of abuse and trolling.

But here is an example:

"How are they sucking your resources? Did Vinnie come over and install BearShare on your system against your will?" - Mr Gone in post immediately previous to mine.

Nos

Re: d!ckhead
 

These questions constitute a lie? Or an uninformed statement?

You make no sense.

> Did Vinnie come over and install BearShare on your system against your will?

I just checked AND HE DID !!

DAMN! No wonder my system was so slow and crashed a lot! Damn, I wish people would learn how to program before they come over and use my computer!

yes, mrgon is not answering questions. everything you tell will be critiziced and questioned, but he can't answer anything... he will come back again and again and give his destructive, arrogant comments to everything.

90% of mrgone's statements are uninformed, boring, useless and provoking.

If you'd taken the time to read the thread you would've seen that I have answered plenty of questions.

Why don't you point out what was missed?