Anonnn, great work & thx!
Moak :)

PS: Mrgone *plonk*

That is the worst thing ive ever seen..

Your allowing people to favor servents over another on gnutella which is horrible because your program no only affects the one user on the network but everyone else's horizon as well..

I dont think you fully understand what your doing much less how it affects gnutella. You want to divide up gnutella based on a non-network issue like commerical programs then fine go ahead with your openp2pnet.

Dont interefere with the current gnutella network by adding things like blocking of servents and some other "features" which dont seem to be in the best interest of gnutella..

Users should allowed to be able to use whatever program they want to and they shouldnt be affected on the network by programs like yours which blocks others programs and limits users freedom by punishing users who choose to use a commerical program instead of an open source one.. Which you or anyone else does not have the right to do.

Really it just sad that people would launch there little assults against me and mrgone for not agreeing with this. Just shows once again that it seems that people are acting without thinking of the potential conquences of there actions...

> people are acting without thinking of the potential conquences of there actions

You mean:
1. Vinnie, seeing only $$$$
2. LimeWire, seeing only investment $$$$
3. Greed, RIAA pissing off it's customers
4. Clustering, AKA Vinnie again

It's time to cluster back!
Clustering already "cut you off". Why aren't you over on BearShare "Labs" getting mad? (I would call it more a place to think up new sneaky ways to get more market share, not a lab)
Won't affect my filesharing a bit. Lots of files on those other clients. I just got a whole bunch of search returns, with full blocking on! Doesn't look much different then when it was off.
Had to wait a bit for all those BS clustered IPs to clear out of my cache though :)

Vinnie started this, now don't complain if people fight back for their freedom.

You started it, now don't whine if people do not want to be ruled by Bearshare, you splitted gnutella, you started it. Now go to your litlle proprietary Bearshare network and confess your fault, but do not whine.

How has Vinnie interfered with your freedom?

You complain that BearShare uses clustering. You claim that BearShare clustering split gnutella. And yet you defend Openp2p in doing so?

If BearShare is running on a proprietary network where is the need to block them?

If clustering already "cut you off" then where is there the need to block connections from them? If you were really cut off there would be no connections to block.

go to bearshare.net, Vinnie can better explain how clusterig and blocking works. he will give you also a VIP status and you can meet nice friends on your emotional level.

Of course it is, I already admitted to mixing things up here. Of course you probably only read the parts you wanted to see. In which case you missed the intent of this.

It's not just that I may disagree with such a silly partisan position that has been presented here, but that I've asked you all to think about it critically.

If you can't think about your position without being offended maybe you should change your position.

your person is the only offending. not what you say, hum did you say something... I have seen you criticize, bitching and question everything. you have given no answers, help, solutions, opportunies or understanding.

Silly partisan hm, we do not have as much money and aggresive ideas as Viniie, but we have the right to defend us and build our own beasrhare free network. Complain to Vinnie, he started it, don't complain about us.

'silly partisan', pfft arrogant blender

Considering what your doing is blocking clients you have no room to bitch if anyone else is doing it.

"But he started it!" is an argument made by eight year olds.

We are defending ourselfs only.

Now whine and criticize at Vinnies's place, he started it. Yes, the origin is responsible, especially if older than eight years. So stop your groundless accusations, kid.

Actually I haven't seen any proof that BearShare has cut off anyone. You guys have reinforced it by your constant desire to block those connections.

Mrgone, you won't see what is happening, eighter you don't understand or you do dont want to understand? We had many threads here on Gnutellaforums about this issue: Vinnie is turning Gnutella into a proprietary BS network since months (proprietary Gnutella packages, proprietary v0.6 headers, clustering BS clients, prefering BS clients, changing host caches without notice, blocking v0.4 clients without technical reasons, e.g. Xolox). He is sucking knowledge away from the GDF, but new features have been implemented closed for others, without giving back something equivalent. Still ignoring the truth and distributing propaganda is a joke IMHO, on IRC you did speak different to what you say here.

This time prove what you say and prove Vinnie is NOT clustering/blocking and NOT destroying, plundering free Gnutella and that the little guys will NOT have fewer connections. Congratulations developers, you gave Vinnie a free card for plundering. Didn't I hear voices when one vendor starts blocking others, he will be kicked out of the community?

This "sectioning/seperating/clustering" are only beautiful words: As a matter of fact it is a kind of blocking, it looks different but has 90% the same effect as blocking. It's the first step to a full proprietary Bearshare network, loosly based on Gnutella protocol. Just wait some months, Vinnie will introduce more features to increase his domination, now that he manged the first step (and nearly nobody complained).

I was making compromises, tolerated Bearshare/Limewire selfish commercial politics, being nice and friendly, helping newcomers and developers.... for months... but after all I don't believe in it anymore... Vinnie's agressive politics has won. He turned the face of Gnutella for ever! *sigh* Think about it. Gnutella was an open protocol for everyone with a variety of equal client, but this ended on March 2002. Today we have a BS network, a LW network, some clients arround. These other client will be eighter sucked into spyware paid BS/LW network in future (with lots of loud marketing).... or the remaining users regroup into something that is not BS/LW controlled. My advice: Do not cooperate or support BS/LW anymore!
The openP2P network maybe one alternative. Seperating from BS in only a matter of defense, I won't feed Vinnie's BS network with my files anymore. I'm sorry to say... Vinnie started to block other clients, now he should be prepared to get blocked from these clients he disadvantages, he can not abuse others for his Bearshare network.
The better idea: Vinnie should have the honour and the truth and let Gnutella alone, call his network Bearshare network and does not touch Gnutella anymore. If his Bearshare is such better, he should leave (but he needs the Gnutella userbase and first wanna grab a bigger userbase and then take them away + he needs the knowledge/ideas of the other GDF developers to improve his client). It would be also healthy for Gnutella, I see currently no client that has such heavy freeloading support as Bearshare has (and we know busy slots are the biggest pain on Gnutella still). If he leaves, then nobody needs to block someone, users and development could be friendly and efficient and Gnutella could be free again. *dreaming*

Greets, Moak

PS: If you want to see what's a really good proprietary network, then test eDonkey2000 (use Adaware to get rid of the Spyware). eDonkey is many times faster then Gnutella (no empty promises, try and you will see).
PPS: Mrgone, this time you prove your words. Don't ask questions, answer them.
Your criticize-always-the-other tactic doesn't work, explain your own position detailed instead.

http://www.milkdrinker.com/freegnutella.gif

All of that is true except for blocking 0.4 clients. Vinnie had implemented that earilier and has since removed it.

If he was blocking your connections you would have no need to block his. There would be no BearShare connections for you to block.

You complain that BS is headed in this direction and yet you support Openp2p doing it.

How do you resolve your hypocrisy?

Im wondering that myself..

Moak you claim to be supporting for a fair and open gnutella. Yet your doing and supporting the exact opposite. The fact that you want to go back to finger pointing, blaming others programs for pretty much everything with baseless accusations, exgerations and speculation which you have zero proof.

Like i said a few posts ago your the ones wanting change so its up to you to provide the proof something more than empty promises and accusations..

It just shows that your the one who doesnt understand...

Make Bearshare a fair client and nobody needs to defend against your Bearshare abuse. You started it, now don't whine.

Seph, your definition of a fair and open gnutella means Bearshare is the only glory and can plunder Gnutella aggresive without reaction? We are only defending ourselfs, that's what fairness contains. I'm sorry too, but please complain at Vinnie's table. If Bearshare wants to be treated as a fair Gnutella client again, okay, then follow the rules and treat other clients equal again. Gnutella is not a two class community where Bearshare is the master and all others are minors.

As for me telling about "baseless accusations", "exgerations" and "speculations", I feel those are terms much better suited to the closed and proprietary world of Bearshare. Here again what are facts: Bearshare comes with proprietary Gnutella packages, proprietary v0.6 headers, clustering BS clients, prefering BS clients, changing host caches without notice, blocking v0.4 clients without technical reasons, e.g. Xolox. Ask the GDF if something is not understood or not true in your eyes, they will confirm it. Well, perhaps I forgot some of the newest Bearshare Gnutella plundering additions.

Moak

Nothing is regulated, what is not fairly regulated

think about this, we are doing vinnie a favor by saving him from all the flames he would have got when he cut off from gnutella to make his own private network now he can do it and no one will notice!

Baseless accusations???

I will search for the links which I posted on bearshare.net... all VIPs (including you) said it is a lie until Vinnie confirmed it (in his words)!

There are also many posts from the GDF - the most people here have no yahoo account so I will search them in a free database...

but Sephiroth than I will "SEE" some arguements from you not just this are accusations etc.

Morgwen

P.S.:

@ mrgone and unregistered

Stop your insults and flames or I will close this thread!

Moak, would you care to respond to this?

I would say, "IF" Gnutella is "free" for bearshare to do what they want others can do the same!

So why not open a third net or a fourth etc. exatly THIS destroys Gnutella - thank you Limewire and THANK YOU Vinnie (bearshare)!

I am against this but I think this is better than doing NOTHING...

Morgwen

This thread has grown by almost 4 pages (at 20 posts/page) since roughly this time yesterday. At the same time though, it hasn't gone anywhere...
Just a little something to munch on :P

In fact it never really got started. Nothing has been said yet that couldn't easily have fit onto one or two pages. I'm just about at the point of just ignoring this thread.

Please don't, thats what he wants. Just edit and moderate as you see fit. Mrgone is hoping this will happen too, like this will all go away if this thread is trolled to death. Sorry, won't stop us.

I allready did some posts above.

it's only a Mrgone tactic to divert, he is the one who doesn't answer questions. Mrgone, proof Vinnie is NOT clustering/blocking and NOT destroying, plundering free Gnutella. Proof it's not fair to defend Gnutella against Vinnie. Morgwen, don't let trolls rule this thread, edit them out, don't close.

So I did this thing it said and I think I conected to new network P2P and I have block on/all it works good!

It is little hard to tell if its blocking but I get nothing back in files from the blocked 1s so it works as I can tell. Not much differance in quality of files frm normal, this is good for me.


moving around thee net is nice idea tnx for that, will try and let you know if I find that file no one has

No my defination of a fair and open gnuella is more like a "market system." I think ive been pretty clear only mentioning it in just about every post in this thread..

Programs are not ment to be equal. Get that in your head. There will always be good and bad programs. Why should the bad programs be allowed to survive? If they cant attrach users to use it then why is it other programs responisbility to bail them out and throw "free code" at the problem and how it sloves itself?

As for your comments on bearshare. I think bearshare has the right and freedom to do what you described. Really your not paying the bills to keep the host cache online nor do you have any right to tell anyone how to run their program.

You are not a gnutella developer your not even a programmer, and even so its not your problem. I think if it really was a problem im sure that the other developers would have spoken up by now.. right? Because i dont think that they need you looking out for their interest thats really their own responisbility..

And no you didnt comment on why its ok for a program like openp2pnet to block gnutella programs and how that make gnutella fair and open..

Was i talking to you? No.. I recall you saying that your going to ignore me and here you are posting comments towards me..

And quit sticking your nose in other people busniess considering that your not moak and your answering for him.

I didnt see you threatening to close this thread when myself and mrgone were being insulted by numerous people. And neather of us has insulted anyone. The only
threat here is that people dont like others opinions.. That is not the ground for closing this thread and would be censoring if it was..

I think the best thing would be to let cyclocide handle this thread if you think theres a problem.

Nice try to badmouth Morgwen and Moak, but it's not convincing. About Morgwen, Cyclocide made him a supermoderator because he thinks he does a very good work! Morgwen is fair and very good informed, has good contacts to various Gnutella develelopers and programmers.
This well known Bearshare VIP (which Sephiroth is) doesn't understand even if you tell him twice, as Mrgone he doesn't want to understand. Sephiroth is known for unfair and unfriendly propaganda (see his old posts), he knows Vinnie only. Don't let Vinnie's VIP destroy this thread.

I never claimed BearShare wasn't clustering. And if BearShare was blocking you then what connections of theirs would there be for you to block?

And now you claim that the alleged blocking by BearShare is destroying Gnutella, so you want to block people in some sort of defense?

That is like shooting yourself in the head to defend yourself from someone about to shoot you in the head.

> Originally posted by Sephiroth
>No my defination of a fair and open gnuella is more like a "market system."
Just like the RIAA, with greed and all, that works real good so far. This isn't a market, it's file trading "get that in your head".

>Programs are not ment to be equal.
You went way off topic with this one, I think a few brain cells came lose.

>Really your not paying the bills to keep the host cache online nor do you have any right to tell anyone how to run their program.
We don't need host caches anymore, remember? Limewire shut theirs down. Gnucleus uses IRC. Open source just whooped right past the pay for clients on this one! We don't need greed!

I think it took Swabby about three days to get "swarming" downloads working, and about 3 or 4 to get ultrapeers going. Shows you that you don't need big bucks to do this.

>I think if it really was a problem im sure that the other developers would have spoken up by now..
They did, they are, they made blocking and choice a reality. Did you help?

>Because i dont think that they need you looking out for their interest thats really their own responisbility..
This is everyone's responsibility and everyone's concern that shares files via P2P. Greed has screwed things up and it will only get worse as more people get on. The more $$ potential, the more people will try to make a buck off of our computer resources. We have to stop this now.

>And no you didnt comment on why its ok for a program like openp2pnet to block gnutella programs and how that make gnutella fair and open..
I will comment. Turn about is fair play. A armed society is a polite society, etc...

You now have a choice, and a weapon against greedy people who want to make a buck off your "fair and open" file trading/swapping.
My concept of fair is when I swap with other like minded people without a thrid party making a buck from my efforts.
I am not "open" to greedy people who think everything I do should make them a buck.

Pay for clients offer nothing if they don't provide a service. Napster provided servers, but that isn't possible on a truly free suit proof swap system and the lawyers are proving it.
As long as no profit is made between two people swaping there isn't much the lawyers can do because money didn't trade hands.
Copyrights were designed to stop those greedy people who printed 100,000 copies of records etc. and sold them for a large profit. Not for the small trader like on P2P for free.

It looks to me that people now have a opportunity to halt the greed before it gets to hard to stop. I hope they realize that this type of opportunity doesn't come along every day. Timing is everything.

Actually this isn't file trading, it's file sharing "get that in your head." If you want file trading go start up a ratio ftp server.

good spoken!

I ment the other unregistered

>Originally posted by mrgone4662
>And if BearShare was blocking you then what connections of theirs would there be for you to block?
The ones that use my computer network resources by connecting to me to support their "network" that they charge for (by whatever means, spyware, adware).

Pay for clients will be "blocking" the free clients soon enough. It will be done when they form their own little networks after developing a user base off of all of our collective trading efforts and computer resources.

Stop them now!

>And now you claim that the alleged blocking by BearShare is destroying Gnutella, so you want to block people in some sort of defense?
No, we are blocking the client, people can still download a free client and continue trading without spamware/spyware, knowing their efforts are not going towards anyone's new car purchases. Network size remains the same because people just dump pay for clients.

No difference to the file trader at all, except for the lack of ads and SPAM!

This is good because it can happen over a period of time, not when some greedy client throws a switch and decides to make his own name brand network.
Shouldn't I get paid for providing the network services that they make a profit on? After all, it costs me electricity and connect fees doesn't it? Where do I send the bill?

I think we know your point of view by now. What your motivation is anyone's gue$$. This does not affect the users, it affects the people who are leeching off of our computer resources/time to make a buck.

Now I am not allowed to post? how often did I post on bearshare.net and I didn´t talk to you and YOU replied???

OF COURSE I AM MOAK ALL PEOPLE HERE KNOW THAT!!! :rolleyes:

And I fake all post from Vinnie on bearshare.net, in the GDF and here... :D

And you and mrgone are very polite people who of course not insult... ;)

I wonder because you said a few days ago you will leave and go to zeropaid... now you are back? And will tell me how I have to do my job??? Raise a poll and ask the users here if they think I am doing a bad job... if they agree I retreat if not...

And CycloCide can handle this thread and close it, of course he can!

Or do you think I am CycloCide too? :p

Yes very good statement - instead of posting arguements you post that we are all bad... hmm... perhaps if you post some REAL arguements the people would reply with arguements too???

But if you insult the people and think they will reply friendly you are wrong!

Morgwen

P.S.:

Next time when you check my IP on bearshare.net you should also compare the HOST names!!! :D

MOAK AND ME HAVE ONLY THE SAME PROVIDER!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Morgwen

So...

Sephiroth I ask Kathw to edit the FLAMES out... she is very fair and wise...

Morgwen

P.S.:

Or do you think she is me??? :D

Prove your conspiracy theory.

boring mrgone boring, "prove your words" is all you can say. You're the most improbably person here. give some own arguments.

What's the matter, can you not provide evidence supporting your conspiracy theory?

Actually you never specifically addressed why it is bad for bearshare to block people but good for openp2p to do it.

And your logic is failing in even claiming that bearshare is blocking people. If that were the case then there would be no bearshare connections for you to block.

umm, I'm another person. prove yourself!

hello? Moak did explain twice. now prove he didn't explain.

So your intention is to force people to use a different client. You're trying to impose restrictions on an individual's freedom to choose what software they wish to use.

So stop hiding under "Unregistered" and post under a registered name.

Read his replies.

I did, now you read it. Prove your claims, when you reply.
No own arguments, than better don't flood anymore.

Please explain in English what this means.