You're not listening at all are you?

Have you even read anything that was written on the previous page?

Have you even read the GNU Public Licence? Or are you selectively ignoring things in hopes that if you ignore it enough, it will go away? If you've chosen to ignore the GPL, have you used your meager funding to hire a lawyer as well? Because I'm certain that the Free Software Foundation will want to have a chat with him if you do.

Maybe you should also get your facts straight too before you start to even speak. It appears that Freepeers has more than one programmer working on Bearshare.

How do you expect the guy to make a buck so he can continue development? He should be able to make a buck on his work. I like the idea of a good no adware client. How do you explain how Red Hat charges when it's GPL?

Redhat sells precompiled and preconfigured packages of programs. You can get the source code, but compiling all the programs and building a linux system from scratch can mean a lot of work...

There are 2 instances under the GPL that allows Red Hat to make their money. Just to qualify my point, here's the clause of the GPL I refer to:
It seems to me that Red Hat charges for the act of creating a CD for you and for the limited warranty they provide with their retail versions.

If someone wants to "make a buck" from selling a Gnutella servent, he/she would have to make that buck by developing their own software from scratch. The makers of Moose aren't doing any "work" by riding the progress of an already fully developed client. Now, unless they can distribute their servent and charge under the guise of providing a warranty of some sort, then that's fine. However, they still would have to make their source available to whomever wants it... free of charge of course. If not, then they're clearly in violation of the GPL and can be taken to court.

If you want a good no adware client, then why don't you use Gnucleus? You know.... the FREE GPL software that Moose is going to be based on. Besides that, there's already an ad free version of LimeWire that cost HALF as much as would be charged for Moose.

But, that all being said, I'm just the messenger. I didn't make the rules... and the makers of Moose will have to take it up with the Free Software Foundation if they feel they don't like it. (Not that there's much they could do about it.) And, being the messenger, I'll make sure the FSF knows all the details if I find out that they're not following the GPL.

However, all this may be in vain. After all, the makers of Moose have not yet said whether they plan on complying with the GPL. If so, then this discussion is moot.

Really?

If that's the case, I am confused by this following clause of the GPL:
In my interpretation (of course, I am only a programmer and not a lawyer) this means that a person cannot charge for a program that was derived from another piece of software that they obtained for free (and has been released under the GPL). I, however, am quite freely willing to admit that I could be wrong.

Maybe you can help clear things up a bit.

Hmmm... I guess I had a couple too many electric popsicles tonight so my thoughts are a bit clouded... So, if I understand you correctly, you're agreeing that ultimately, a person (or company) couldn't take a GPL'ed piece of software available for free (like Gnucleus) and create a derivative work from it and then charge for that derivative work? Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to make sure of.

So I can download the most recent, complete, up to date, no adware "pay for" version of LimeWire somewhere on your site? Where? Did I miss the link?
Or are you selectivly using GPL on parts of the code?
Didn't Morpheus basicly do this? Grab Gnucleus and then "charge" for it through adware? Did anyone get upset and call the FSF over that? Should we?
Anyone have a good link explaining this GPL profit motive in plain english?

As I said before, the way I understand it is you may create a derivitive work, and even charge for it. However, because of the GPL all source code must be released, so making a free version will never be impossible.

And yes, you can get the free source code from www.limewire.org. Of course they don't distribute a free (and ad-free) compiled program on limewire.com, they wouldn't make any profit that way. But you can search for clean Limewire, which if I remember correctly is hosted on a geocities site somewhere (though it gets subjected to heavy loads).

That's a really good question. As I understand it, under the GPL any derivitive work must release the source code that was used. Isn't Limewire Pro basically a derivitive work of the free version?

Then again, Limewire Pro may contain some code altered enough to no longer require coverage under the GPL from the free version. In which case they wouldn't be required to release those parts of the code.

[P.S.]
As I understand it a link to download the source isn't required anywhere, but the source must be available by request (example: asking for via email.)

The source code for Moose has been previously released at gnucleus.net
The serial number and other special features are locked in a private binary that is highly connected and compiled into the code base to protect our time investment. This is also legal under the GPL.
Moose checks into the home site every so often to check for new versions, obtain a fresh list of hosts, and confirm the serial number.
A small amount of statistical information is transfered at that time via a secured encrypted connection. Things like what types of files were downloaded, number of megabytes transfered, how many connections were dropped, keywords searched, file content type, horizon size, files shared, connection speed, service provider, etc. This information is added to a large statistical database for general overall statistical information only and will not be specific to any user. It will all be laid out in our new privacy policy that must be agreed to when you first run Moose.
We will have a very comprehensive statistics web page available to our subscribed users on the web site. We provide valuable information to all our users.
The Moose is coming along quite nicely.

Use the Moose!

IANAL, but from the GPL:

If it's compiled into the gnucleus source code, and distributed together I believe you must also release the source code to these modifications. At least that's how I understand it. I still hope you're trolling (the gpl and this privacy crap? haha), or have a good explaination of how you interpret the gpl differently from me.

"your CPU is contributing to the wealth of those who would manipulate the Gnutella network for their self-benefit."

Nah, I'll continue to use what I'm using now... it's free, and I don't have to contend with the possibility, however remote it might be, that my personal information is being collected for someone else's benefit.

That's how I understand it as well.

However, not that it's going to make much difference. My guess is that within a week or so of Moose's release, there will be a "FreeMoose" floating around anyway as long as the major part of the source is released. Someone is bound to do it.

Really? Where is it now? Or will you be releasing it again when Moose is completed?

Yea, like BearShare does with it's spy packets.

Get Greed off Gnutella! Block, block, BLOCK them!

"From legitimate advertising companies with Fortune 500 clients to unethical hackers working in covert networks, organizations are eager to tap your computer. But advertisers, publishers, industry pundits and journalists rarely agree on definitions of the emerging niches of "adware" and "spyware," two forms of software that usually piggyback on another, more popular program."

http://news.com.com/2009-1023-885144.html

Use linux
 

<A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=debian+spyware&hl=en&lr=lang_en&selm=hand ler.113155.D113155.100994628911878.ackdone%40bugs. debian.org&rnum=3">This</A> is what happens to spyware on <A HREF="http://www.debian.org/">Debian</A> linux.

Link is to a bug report filed regarding a program which sent the user's email address to login to a server - the patch stops this behaviour and changes login to a free cddb server instead of a commercial one. The free one works perfectly.

That's about as severe as the spyware problem gets on Debian, and that's the only package I could find which has ever had the label spyware applied, among some 4000 odd packages.

No, I tell a lie - here is <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=debian+spyware&start=40&hl=en&lr=lang_en& selm=handler.126814.D126814.10097440008326.ackdone %40bugs.debian.org&rnum=48">another</A> - this time an ftp program which sends the real user name while logging into ftp servers.

Note that your milage with 'commercial' linux distributors may vary: Debian is totally non-commercial. I expect FreeBSD, NetBSD, and certainly OpenBSD would have similar anti-spyware attitudes. They are all additionally extremely robust and easily-maintained operating systems. Just follow the directions and ask questions on usenet & irc.

Nos

Another example of blatant greed. This guy took Gnucleus and uses it as a marketing tool for his other $14.95 offers, and those offers look like re-labeled software anyway.
http://music-magnet.com/

So copy this web site, change the name and make a bundle $$$$.

Music Magnet looks like a second tier ripoff to me. It almost looks like this guy used the source from the Morpheus Preview Edition which uses the source from Gnucleus. The main interface looks almost exactly like the one from Morpheus.

Limewire installs spyware without asking
 

In the past Limewire has installed spyware without asking - it still does - and it will do in the future, if users do not complain. No matter what nice words the PR is telling afterwards, investigate and check Limewire against spyware. Sooner or later Limewire has gone trough all existing spyware and scumware. Nice history so far! To keep yourself uptodate with what's missing:

http://www.simplythebest.net/info/spyware.html
http://www.computerevidencerecovery.com/startprog.htm
Brand new spyware, soon in a Limewire next to you!

Btw, someone should document which spyware has been installed from Limewire and Bearshare so far, which were without asking the users?

This openp2p net thing is notorious for offtopic discusions! :)

I splitted the thread and took out the TopMoxie discussion and moved it here:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...threadid=10733

Morgwen

Unregistered!

Can you please repost it in the new thread!

I think I was a little to slow, or you to fast! :)

Morgwen

Did you know that installing LimeWire leaves behind a program called "eTraffic" that spies on EVERYTHING you do on your computer? Uninstalling
LimeWire won't get rid of it, and it doesn't come with an uninstaller. It's disgusting that this is even legal.

Taken from http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articl...o/04212002a.php

Thx Afisk for your sincerity and integrity of information.

The RIAA loves these P2P corporations.
Here's the RIAA talking about a greedy P2P corp that is having a little problem with their spyware revenue.
"It's refreshing to see they're interested in fighting for intellectual property," said Amanda Collins, a spokeswoman for the Recording Industry Association of America.

You can see how these corps will turn coat in a minute if it means losing $$$.

You people have to pick sides, either you are for the corporations, RIAA/MPAA and greed or you are not.

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-891724.html
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04252002d.php

Greed sucks!

What's the real point of the spy/ad ware?
 

People get pissed off because of teh spy/ad ware exist in some Gnutella client software, in the meantime, the maker of those spy/ad ware are making money from Gnutella network's free resource. Wait ... from where?

Sometimes from observation, people tend to jump on the direct conclusion with the easiest express path. For instance, if you are running Bearshare with spyware, and donwloading file from my disk, the profit that you are making should have some share that I've contributed, or did I?

A simpliest question often forgotten to be asked: Why in hell do these user who more than likely already pissed off by the spyware and complaint all around the world, in real life, are still using Bearshare? Why didn't they switch over to these many other Gnutella client available on the earth? Did any of you who jump on the 'openxxx p2p' bandwagon ever bother to ask yourself this question?

Let me try this, the spyware is not exactly target to make profit from Gnutella share files, but rather attempt to exploit a way to sponsor the software development.

Now back to the question why those bearshare users are still using bearshare, it's simply because they like bearshare, period!!

This whole open Gnutella network brought us a good thing, that is anyone can develop a Gnutella client software, to offer to user for a choice. To use bearshare regardless the annoy spyware is truly a user choice. It can only because bearshare is better than other software in it's usability, connectivity, or whatever, that is in this user's view.

It's your choice to develop a better software to compete with bearrshare if you can, at any time. The fact is, most freebie are under developer's spare time work, often inferior to those back by some financial support.

To ban bearshare as well as any other software client with spyware will not stop developer's attempting to seek financial support as naturally they want to spend more time on it but also bring income by do that work, hope this is not something hard to understand.

The ideal result of course, is most of Gnutella developer join in one or a few of development group, concentrate on a single or a couple of client software, instead of this free competition mode of Gnutella client software. Though the premise is an unite commitee sort to settle on the proposal with priority when developers have disparate opinion.

ad-aware and bearshare are like two peas in a pod. Get rid of the ads and continue on reaping files. Why use a inferior free client when you can get a commercial one for free?

That URL up there is b0rked up
 

The limewire URL is b0rked and you just get Zeropaid's front page or something like it.
<A HREF="http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/random-bits/2002-February/000743.html">Here</A> is a description of the beast, but someone please post the Zeropaid URL - I would be interested to read it.

<A HREF="http://salon.com/tech/feature/2002/04/26/hollings_spyware/index.html">Evil US bill to undermine privacy and protect spyware</A>

<A HREF="http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/04272002a.php">Bearshare now has CyDoor spyware</A> (surprised to think it didn't)

Thanks Adam 'that's all there is, honest' Fisk
Joey, where's them dogs?

Nos

who let the dogs out?

Re: wierd physical threats:
I don't see how you can consider this a physical threat. I'm not even in your country. You seemed to understand my reference earlier - I am underlining that my instincts seemed correct
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...e&pagenumber=8

I think you are acting like a kid caught with some drugs. I got your quote wrong, here it is worded correctly, perhaps this will jog you memory worded correctly:
"That's it, man. Really." AFisk 04-10-2002 04:45 PM

Now, what I am saying is that this eTraffic 'sub-bundle' was never mentioned. It has a different name to TopMoxie - to me looks like 'a different thing'.

So the list over at
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...5&pagenumber=3

should now be amended to

Previous:
Cydor
eZula
Gator
BonziBuddy
clicktillyouwin

Current:
Cydoor
TopMoxie
eTraffic


**
Adam, I sure hope they gave you a raise and/or bonus - no-one should have to defend themselves personally in the line of duty in a day job. As far as I am concerned, you are Limewire, limewire is you, because I am talking to you as a representative of Limewire.

You shouldn't have your personal reputation put on the line over the fact that your boss requires you to install unscrupulous software on people's machines, that is his business. I would have walked long ago.

So please don't misconstrue anything I say to you as personal, it is not (except maybe this particular advice beginning at the double-asterisk '**' and ending here).

Nos

'TopMoxie' thread continues over at
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showth...5&pagenumber=3

btw who's this Michael Hefner? Could you please provide a link if it's important, since you seem to have already looked up the post you are referring to.

Michael Hefner's post can be found at the very TopMoxie thread you linked to, on page 2.

I'm behind the times
 

Sorry for missing that thread - I posted the cross-link without having thoroughly read the thread (because I wanted any replies to my post to go in that thread!). I was not at all aware of that thread when I posted my query regarding eTraffic, as I don't spend much time in the limewire forum.

As you will see from my link, I got my info from a newsnet posting, and simply assumed that the info was not posted in this forum. Perhaps I was confused by the way this thread was split? I guess I missed the notice by Morgwen .. I notice a duplicate of the start of that thread is in this thread. I dunno, it's confusing.

I guess I could have searched.

Nos

Any client that won't take the responsibility to remove spyware they installed with their program needs to be blocked off the net. Why should you continue to profit from my resources if I just tried out your program and decided I didn't like it?
It just goes to show you how the company "front man" can say how happy and nice their company is, but the real guy in charge is only interested in $$.
These companies need to take the responsibility and remove everything they install.
Commercial interests don't belong on Gnutella in the first place, that's why they are having all these problems with ads.
Greed doesn't belong on Gnutella.
Even XoloX is trying to be "nice" about their advertising, and they still don't know how to do it correctly because the users still don't want ads shoved in their face but also don't want to pay for something they can get for free like Gnucleus.
Commercial companies should see the writing on the wall, STAY OFF GNUTELLA !
This isn't your profit center or your personal gold mine.

Sure they do. This is an open network, everyone is welcome to participate.

Again Adam, you miss the point, I don't have a option to not use your software, unless I use blocking to keep your software away from my connections.
So, the only option is to block LimeWire so I don't have to contribute to your personal profit.

Gnucleus now uses a web based cache system, and I came up with the idea!
BearShare doesn't have a hold on everyone anymore!
If you didn't know, all the current host caches for the last 4 or 6 months are using the BearShare one, just re-directing the link, or are using BearShare for the cache software.
If it wasn't for open source you wouldn't see this feature because commercial companies lose control, and they hate that.
Too bad now! Another weak link removed from Gnutella, now just block, block, block those commercial clients off the net!

"The final feature, new in 1.7.5 is actually something separate we created for increasing the survival of Gnutella. Its called GnuCache, a web based PHP script that acts as a host cache for gnutella nodes. The reason we developed this is so Gnutella becomes more fail-safe. Most gnutella clients rely on permanent host servers such as connect1.gnutellanet.com to find an entry into the gnutella network. Gnucleus is the only gnutella client not dependent on host cache servers"

this thread has become 100% offtopic...

has it? dont think so, sometimes it hurts to see the uncomfortable truth?

First, Do No Harm - A Hippocratic Oath for Coders?
Add a second rule: do not fool users. With the increase in spyware, spam, etc, is it time for a Hippocratic Oath for Programmers? Should programmers be able to refuse to write code that harms the public more than it helps?

With some kind of Hippocratic oath, coders like Vinnie and Afisk need to quit their jobs? This is the classic dilema with all technology, which can be used equally to promote good as well as well as evil. Read the story on Slashdot: http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/02/0...2.shtml?tid=99

And with an improved ethics http://www.acm.org/serving/se/code.htm...
some noble Gnutella developers would be kicked into their buts.

Big respect to ungreedy open source developers!

Spyware is good, it supports Gnutella development efforts with money.

ignore Taliban

EXACTLY... the only people spyware is good for is the companies that make the spyware

Yes,

but what the most people here try to explain there are other possibilities than spyware!

Nobody said its a bad thing to earn money!

Morgwen

What Pizzaman (me) is pointing out to you is that spyware paid companies do not care how they make money, they have no ethic guidelines and so do the programmers. But programmers do actually write the software, without them there would be no crap-ware and they should take the responsibility which companies don't want to take.

The point is clear, without programmers making spyware or using spyware in own products, there would be no spyware in the world. Computer technology is a step into our future and culture, a wrong use will harm us all. Isn't it time for a coder's oath? Ask yourself, would you need to get a honest job, are you proud on all your work?

You ARE responsible, not only your boss.

How many spyware paid companies do you know? Most companies have a business model, make money from customers which agree to pay money and don't need to steal money. If your product isn't worth to be paid, then it's not worth to be used!

But instead of following western business rules, you publicise a modern way of stealing money from customers: bundling sypware/hijackware/crapware! In another thread, Afisk, you didn't even know how many hijackware your company has bundled so far. It's a shame that this isn't illegal. You lost on the free market. Your company's reputation needs to be ashamed and your fooled customers need to be educated not to use your product.

Ähem...

you post in every second post how cool spyware is and this helps Gnutella etc. - I really ask me WHY DON`T YOU USE IT THEN?

Yes I know you want that other user pay for you, because you use Linux, let the "stupid" windows user pay...

man don´t tell us what we have to do if you don´t want to do it, Ok?

Morgwen

good point, Morgwen!
word of the day is 'hipocrisy' again and goes to Taliban.

I decided to give my money to LimeWire directly...

http://opensourcep2p.sf.net/
free and spyware free!
block the greed

Are you arguing the fact that you are not told about the spyware or that it is there. In other words if you knew you were installing thrid party software would it then be ok to earn money that way?

spyware is a lame excuse for people who don't know how to run a proper business, which includes proper marketing, advertising and sales.
these companies sluff that off on to other companies and wonder why they have to get more and more agressive in order to support BOTH companies.
spyware sucks, it doesn't matter if they tell you or not.
and greed will always corrupt them so you can't trust them with your computer.