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OpenSource P2P Debate, it's about choice Before this I had no choice. For example: it seems that when I connect to one BearShare node, then others connect back till I have nothing but BearShare nodes connected. (I am using Gnucleus) I search and most of the results come from BearShare nodes. I don't know about you, but BearShare people don't seem to know what good music is. I have my own tastes you know. So now I can selectivly block BearShare or Morpheus, or even Gnucleus and move around the network to find my music or any other rare files. It's so nice to have that choice! If I hear something on the forums here about a client getting greedy, or spying on it's users, I have the choice to block that client and not support it by letting it use my computer network resources. When I hear that that client has removed the spyware, I can simply change a few settings and that client is not on my bad list anymore. Power to the people! If I hear that a old client is creating a problem for the network, I can simply add it to my list to help the network without waiting for a developer group to decide what to do. What could be so wrong with giving the users a choice? |
People have the choice to use any client they wish. Your attempts to diminish their quality of service is an abuse of the gnutella network. |
Disadvantaging and blocking - the new pain of Gnutella Hi, I want to repost some of my posts from the older but flooded thread, a summary: What's happening? We had many threads here on Gnutellaforums about Bearshare is abusing Gnutella. Is it true? I'm pretty sure you haven't seen any non-commercial client comming with loud marketing, ads, spyware, proprietary extensions, clustering, blocking or disadvantaging other clients, trying to control and takeover a big market share. Only commercial clients do as far as I know, only Bearshare and Limewire do (okay and Morpheus comes with Spyware too). Not enough, Vinnie (Bearshare programmer) is turning Gnutella now into a proprietary BS network since months (proprietary Gnutella packages, proprietary v0.6 headers, clustering BS clients, prefering BS clients, changing host caches without notice, blocking v0.4 clients without technical reasons, e.g. Xolox). Vinnie also had this older idea of blocking a client and still download from it (after complains he dropped this idea). Ask a Gnutella developer if something technical is not understood or not true in your eyes, they will confirm it. Also Vinnie is taking knowledge from the so called GDF, but new features have been implemented closed for others, without giving back something equivalent. Any doubts about the given information, those are not facts? Please explain and prove Vinnie is NOT clustering/blocking and NOT destroying, plundering free Gnutella and that the little guys will NOT have fewer connections. This "sectioning/seperating/clustering" of Bearshare (and Limewire) are only beautiful words: As a matter of fact it is a kind of blocking, it looks different but has 90% the same effect as blocking. It's the first step to a full proprietary Bearshare network, loosly based on Gnutella protocol. Just wait some months, Vinnie will introduce more features to increase his control IMHO, now that he managed the first step (and nearly nobody complained). Oh and don't believe those rumours clustering improves the network, how does a monoculture instead of a common improved Gnutella protocol bring advantages? Also wanna have a one vendor internet (e.g. AOL), instead of the world wide web and it's reliable HTTP protocol plus a variety of clients? Sure, Bearshare is a nice client, but this doesn't mean it should control Gnutella... perhaps you recognized there are better clients or clients which brought new features into Gnutella. Congratulations developers, you gave Vinnie a free card for plundering and splitting Gnutella. Limewire are best friends to Bearshare, build a kind of busines alliance and defend each other. Didn't I hear voices when one vendor starts blocking others, he will be kicked out of the community? What to do now? Well, I tolerated Bearshare/Limewire selfish commercial politics, helping newcomers and developers.... for months. After all I don't believe in it anymore... and I have enough! It seems Vinnie's agressive politics has won. He turned the face of Gnutella for ever! *sigh* Think about it. Gnutella was an open protocol for everyone with a variety of equal client, but this ended on March 2002. What we have today? We have a BS network, a LW network, a Gnutella clients network arround. Some of the other clients and users will be sucked into spyware paid BS/LW network in future (with lots of loud marketing).... or.... the remaining users regroup into something that is not BS/LW controlled. I see no advantage for the users in a Gnutella monoculture. Do you prefer a proprietary 'Bearshare network' or 'Gnutella'? My advice: For the sake of Gnutella do not cooperate or support Bearshare/Limewire anymore! Choose a better client (Windows, Linux, more on Zeropaid). Stay informed and do not believe in propaganda. The OpenP2P network (intoduced from Anonnn) maybe one alternative. Seperating from BS in a matter of defense, I won't feed Vinnie's BS network with my files anymore. I'm sorry to say... Vinnie started to block other clients, now he should be prepared to get blocked in return from these clients he disadvantages. He can not abuse others for his Bearshare network and expect this lasts forever. The better idea: Vinnie should have the honour and the truth and let Gnutella alone. Call his network 'Bearshare network' and does not touch free Gnutella anymore (but honestly he needs the Gnutella userbase and first wanna grab a bigger userbase and then take them away + he uses the knowledge/ideas of the other GDF developers to improve his client IMHO). If Bearshare leaves it would be also healthy for Gnutella, I see currently no client that has such heavy freeloading support as Bearshare has (and we know busy slots are the biggest pain on Gnutella still). If he leaves Gnutella development could be friendly, efficient and free again. *dreaming* A revolutionary idea: Bearshare and Limewire agree to stop all proprietray network/protocol extensions and willing to cooperate democratic with all developers, to improve Gnutella with combined force. Another alternative is further developing Gnutella protocol alone and make sure no commercial abuse is possible (e.g we had my Gnutella v0.7 proposal and GodxBlue's GNUXP which I like most of all). What's wrong? Please understand we are only "defending" Gnutella, that's what fairness contains. I'm sorry too, please complain at Vinnie's table. Fight the cause not the symptoms: Bearshare and Limewire want to be treated as fair Gnutella clients, okay, then Vinnie/Mark has to follow a simple rule and treat other clients equal again. Gnutella is not a two class community where some are master and all others are minors. Before you ask, the problem is not closed sourced software or making money with a protocol. I like money too. :-) The problem is the unacceptable politics of some vendors which would like to control other (as described above) and some of us will not contribute rescources and knowledge to the benefit of a single/two vendor network. My idea of a Gnutella network is different, fair, friendly, efficient and in peacefull cooperation, where the benefit of a better network will be for every client. Which means more files and a better technology for you! Greets, Moak PS: Moderators, could you please protect this thread from too much flooding? :-) Perhaps move repeated flooding into another thread? http://www.milkdrinker.com/freegnutella.gif |
If anyone else (including Vinnie) is abusing the gnutella network then they are wrong too!!! But that doesn't make what Openp2p is doing any more "right". It just makes you hypocrits from complaining about the same type of behavior that you're participating in and advocating. |
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There must be some reason why it is getting blocked, so go to the source. People don't seem to like that client for some reason. It's your responsibility if you want to keep using a spyware client, and it's your choice to do something about it. What other defense do file swappers have against corporate greed sucking off of Gnutella? Turn about is fair play Mr. Gone! Moak, cool T's |
Morgwen could you summarize the points of view (both sides) from the other forums you are on and add them to this debate? Anything that hasn't been covered here would be good, & links? |
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So call it freedom to do what others do too! I wonder because I didnīt see a post from you as I ask Vinnie why he is doing it (on bearshare.net)... now you say its wrong? Hmm... but you only try to persuade the open source users!?! Why not Vinnie? And I remember also that you said on IRC that you think its nothing wrong when bearshare is clustering because they can use their technic better! :confused: As I said if Gnutella is free in this way, it seems so because nobody of the developers really care about it, then everybody should choose his way! I donīt want to be a part of this bearshare.net too! Morgwen |
In the end this is a pathetic attempt by a bunch of people who do not understand the ideals of P2P or gnutella and do not care nor respect the rights that others have on the network only their own selfishness. You are not making gnutella "free" your taking away freedom from those without the same views as yourselves.. No one has the right to force their opinions on other users. Which is exactly what they are doing by blocking and making ridculeous demands. Especially since no other developer has any objections.. But in the end i dont think that the majority of people are taking anyone seriously. The only thing that keeps repeating is the same unproven and really ridculeous accusations against bearshare and personal attacks against its developer. And great exgerations of the truth and rantings which make no sense... I only hope that other intelligent people realize the seriousness and stupidity of actions like blocking that it takes away freedom of choice for users and how ridculeous and counter-productive ideas like forcing all commerical programs off the network is.. and really the behavior and manner in which the opponets of such plans present themselves.. |
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Seperating is now taking away the freedom? You should tell Vinnie that he takes away our freedom too! Vinnie made the rules other follow the rules its simple! Morgwen |
Originally posted by Sephiroth >Especially since no other developer has any objections.. RAM left the_gdf and had lots of objections, others left and are too polite to say anything. >But in the end i dont think that the majority of people are taking anyone seriously. The only thing that keeps repeating is the same unproven and really ridculeous accusations against bearshare and personal attacks against its developer. This is not a BearShare only issue. Blocking IPs has been done for quite some time now in most clients, no one has removed that feature and you can just about do the same thing with it manually so what is the difference? |
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...and I think Bearshare is the origin of blocking. "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy." (Abraham Lincoln) |
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Good thing BearShare removed the ability to block, people were using it to move around the network and get away from BS nodes. Did he take out the ability to remove connected nodes yet? That would let people block BS also. Wouldn't want that! I hear he has removed lots of features that allow people to see what is going on in the network, could he be trying to hide all his little tricks? Another reason he needs to start his own private network. On top of that he is now identifying his clients with strange headers that may contain computer specific information and identifies BS with some sort of encryption so people can prefer BS over other clients for search hits. Why bother thinking up a way that those "other" clients could use too, to solve this "problem" with query hits? People have been telling him from the start that he would get more market share simply by being nice to his users, but he likes screwing with the network instead. Again, this isn't a BearShare issue, but BearShare is a good example of what happens when you let greed slip into Gnutella. If it isn't stopped now it will get worse. |
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For the last TIME prove your words! Or will you start with hot air like Sephiroth - many words without facts! Yes the MAIN problem is VINNIE but he is the chief coder so THIS IS OF COURSE A BEARSHARE ISSUE! Morgwen |
> Yes the MAIN problem is VINNIE but he is the chief coder so THIS IS OF COURSE A BEARSHARE ISSUE! Even though Vinnie is a prime example of corporate style greed gone berzerk, it's not just him. Just wait to see what Morpheus does after a little while. What happens when LimeWire goes under and/or gets purchased by a large corporation? It's all about profit. Maybe the threat of blocking will keep them in line, I hope so. The only new thing new here is you can now set blocking via the GUI and then blocking happens without you doing anything. Before you could simply press "remove" for any client you wanted to remove from your connection list. And press "Stop" or even block IP's you didn't like in uploads. I have seen people posting about doing this manually to try to move around the network to get a better "horizon". I am sure people used this method to block things they didn't like, or just for a power trip. This is one feature you won't see in a pay for client! I did mention that this new client works on Gnutella or the OpenSource P2P Net didn't I? http://opensourcep2p.sf.net Stop the greed! |
Blocking other users in an attempt to diminish their quality of service just so you can push your political agenda is abusing the network. This is a free network. Meaning (in part) that each user has the right to choose whichever client they wish to use, without reprisal. Your attempt to splinter gnutella along partisan lines is ethically reprehensible. We share as a community without boundary. Without limits on income level, sex, race, creed, religion, or politics. |
The other day I donated a very good TV and some other good household items to a charity in good faith that they would give it to a needy family. I talked to the guy at the counter and he assured me it would go to a good family. Later that week I happened upon a garage sale that just happened to be this counter persons home and he was selling my TV and the other items! Should I A. Call a cop. B. Report him to the charity. C. Take it all back. D. Kick his A.. Wouldn't you call this a 3rd party leeching off my good intentions? |
Call a cop and report it to the charity. And no, this isn't leeching, this is fraud. |
can there not be a thread about gnutella issues where mrgone4662 doesnt flood? come one now... i think that we are all old enough to know when to keep our hands off the keyboard... :) ps to mrgone4662 please dont go tearing everything that i say appart and over analysize what i say. this just makes things worse. i know you are a mixer, but i believe what this network needs right now is some stability and not people mixing things up. |
So it is fraud. That's pretty serious. What if this guy was going to sell the TV at the garage sale and donate 50% back to the charity and kept the rest, would that be OK? What about 80% or 20%? And if the charity slaps this guy, and a month later I find out he is doing it again, what should I do? Should I get the neighborhood community together and stop this? |
You can already automatically block/drop people who don't have enough "friends" in Gnucleus and some other clients, meaning nodes with a limited horizon. That is picking on those poor people who don't have a lot of bandwidth, IE modem users or people in another country. Those internal private college LANs won't let you in from the outside, they block you too. They also block anyone on the internal LAN that doesn't have the correct LAN name entered. At 300 plus nodes they don't seem to have a problem sharing at all so it doesn't matter. Your horizon on Gnutella is limited even now to a few thousand nodes (or less). You are blocked from the rest of the network, how can you move around to other areas? Blocking is already happening in many ways, this is just the next step in giving the user more choices, and more power over how he shares. Some people want to create their own semi private network of friends, you can easily do that now and block any "outside" connections. |
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Zeropaid has a article about this at http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04012002b.php |
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On Zeropaid Adam Fisk wrote: Quote:
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>Bearshare has contributed mightily to the lowest of lows in spyware. People had to pull his teeth to get him to put a notice and option to not install the spamware. The people on gnutella "contributed mightily" to keeping it free. People had to jump all over him to stop spewing his spy packets all over the network. He finally was pressured into sending them TTL 1 or 2 only. Again, the people on gnutella fought to keep it free. Now again the people have to put pressure on him to stop. Why does he keep doing this? The almighty buck $$$$ New strange headers, new encrypted messages to only BS clients, what's next? >Views like this should really be taken with a grain of salt unless they come from within the developer community itself There are more than the_gdf group of developers. And the other group doesn't seem to like the idea of greed on Gnutella. Greed sucks. You can bet the other $$ clients will be thinking up new stuff to make a buck off of all this. Stop them now before it gets worse. |
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> Originally posted by plasticparadox > It is a totally different story to block Buddy from the north end of town because he uses LimeWire. See where I'm going with this? People have been known to cancel uploads and block a IP of other users they don't like for one reason or another. This isn't that much different. > your CPU is contributing to the wealth of those who would manipulate the Gnutella network for their self-benefit. Very well said. > your CPU is also contributing to the growth of Gnutella and the freedom to share information. And isn't that what it's all about? And we can do that without the negative effects greed causes on the network. I want to know that my files and CPU cycles are only going to support ad free clients and not "the wealth of those who would manipulate the Gnutella network for their self-benefit", that's my choice and made possible by this software. > How do they spam, spy, and use you? You use Gnucleus, am I right in presuming this? They use us as support for their users, and thus we are supporting their spam. I don't support spyware or spammers. You should read some older threads about spyware, adware and so on. > My strongest argument on this topic is on the definition of OpenSource. The GPL license doesn't allow a author to restrict what user "type" uses open source programs, like business vs. personal use. It also makes sure the source code is open to all to modify. I don't think it applies to what we are talking about. |
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If you want A BEARSHARE ONLY thread start on own one! Morgwen |
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Originally posted by plasticparadox > What it all boils down to is that by participating in the OpenSource p2p, you are hurting users' ability to share files. That fact is fairly clear, I'm sure. I don't see it that way because there are too many good free clients out there they can switch to in a minute and keep on sharing. In the end we lose no one. >You didn't answer my first two questions. And again, they "use" you in a very indirect manner. Since they spy on other users and put adware in their programs, I choose to keep them off the network. I think it's bad to do that to your users, so I choose to block them and refuse to contribute to their product, even if it's "indirect". All political change requires sacrifice. It's my view that if Gnutella started off with a rule of no pay for clients (with hindsight), the free clients would have been at this point much sooner and more people would be using/supporting them. Now that the CPU cycle and file suport is going to enrich the pay for clients, they can advertise, hire people to spread the word, and so on which disadvantages the free clients. > What I wanted to make perfectly clear is that the OpenSource p2p Network's existence is contrary to the recognized standards of the OpenSource movement. I don't think it is. We couldn't modify this client to give people this choice without it being open source. And we give out the source of our modifications, and that would be considered under the GPL. Open source & GPL is about the source code and how authors can restrict it's use, not user choice or what the program does. You have the choice to use your open source word processor to create flyers trying to stop people from going to a particular store or business if you didn't like what that business does. If you are talking about the name, the clients on the network are open source code and free to use, thus the name. You could start your own network today that only allows movies or mp3s. It's now possible with the new software changes. Blocking is also good for those who create a college network LAN that doesn't connect to the outside internet by accident. If a sysadmin sees too much outside traffic he may choose to block access completely. |
So time to get off the net (your ISP may be providing service to someone who uses BearShare, and by paying your ISP you are indirectly supporting BS.) Oh wait... time to take back the computer for a refund (BS users may be using parts from the same manufacturer, and you wouldn't want to support a company that helps BS.) Come to think of it, you'd have to quit your job, stop paying bills, and stop spending money completely. All those things contribute to a global economy, without which there would be no BearShare. When you think about it it is really amazing what you're indirectly supporting. |
I have no feelings on this subject one way or the other ,so plz forgive me for trolling,yet I find it ironic that over @ the OpenSource P2P website they have listed Bearshare.nets various host caches as an entry point into Gnutella....am I missing something here? Having said that though I wish you guys well in trying to achieve your goal,choice is a good thing to have. |
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If more people would be using/supporting free clients, why are LimeWire and BearShare so popular? Correct me if I'm wrong, but LimeWire and BearShare, to my the best of my knowledge, have not been advertised extensively. LimeWire is a multi-platform client, which has led to it's popularity. BearShare locates more nodes faster, which has led to it's popularity. It's the program features, not just the marketing, that has led to each respective program success. I also found it interesting that you mentioned free clients are being disadvantaged. As they are free, they are not in direct competition with anyone. They exist primarily to enrich file-sharing, and offer choice. Quote:
You have termed the Network, not just the Client, as OpenSource. The Network is NOT Open. It is a private, members-only, exclusive network. Thus, this is a misuse of the term. Yes, GPL is about the licensing of the program. But I didn't mention the term GPL. I'm talking about OpenSource. OpenSource reflects an image of freedom and equality. It's more than a license agreement, it's a manner in which we choose to conduct ourselves. Quote:
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On GDF (commercial Gnutella Developer Forum) Vinnie wrote: Quote:
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/6631 I think it explains a lot! ;) Morgwen P.S.: Somebody should explain Vinnie that Xolox is no part of this open source net... :D |
You're right Morgwen,I just needed pointing in the right direction. I will be the first to admit that I'm technologically challenged,even now,when I open my CD tray,I automacially put my mug of coffee on it,thinking it's a new fangled dining room table.;) Quote:
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Join the new network! "OPENP2PNONPROFITONLYXOLOXROOLEZD0OD" Thanks to Vinnie! He really hates XoloX doesn't he? Shows how slow the_gdf is, they just figured out this was going on? > Originally posted by plasticparadox > Why should they have to switch in the first place? To be on OpenSource P2P Net, they need to use a open source free to use client. On the regular Gnutella Net, they should choose a client that doesn't spy/spam/popup ad you to death because public opinion of that attitude will cause that client to get blocked off the network. More and more people are downloading and using this client, so those who develop spyware enabled clients should think twice about being so greedy, in my opinion. And now they have a reason to respect the "outsiders" a little bit more. Look at what Kaza and Morpheus are doing now, people are worried about the spyware that is in there, and the corporations now want to use your CPU cycles and network resources to distribute their SPAM at no cost to them. Stop this now before it happens on Gnutella! This is the only way I see to stop this before it gets too far. plasticparadox, if you have a better idea please let me know, and send some source code for it if you can. > You think it's bad to do what to users; serve them advertising or block their clients? Blocking them is a subtle way to do this. It doesn't completely cut them off (on Gnutella Net) but gets them to make a better choice of client vendor. > Because Gnutella and politics should not mix. Tell that to everyone on the_gdf. This is reality. > You have termed the Network, not just the Client, as OpenSource. It's just a name, I could have called it FREENET, or FREENOPOLITICS, or FREDS, or NONPROFIT. Feel free to make up your own name and network, it's fun! People do it at colleges everywhere with only 300 or so nodes and it works quite well. The network is also defined on the home page, so it's not misleading anyone. > But I didn't mention the term GPL. Then don't quote the GPL license text in your post and claim it somehow regulates the OpenSource Network. Again, it only applies to the software's author. > That doesn't mean you can use an OpenSource kiddy-hack script to shut down a store or businesses e-commerce server if you don't like what that business does. Script "kiddies" do it all the time, and they don't care much about the GPL license. > The argument you have just used entitles you to use your OpenSource word processor to create some Anti-Profit websites. People can do that too if they want to. Now you aren't making sense. I think we mostly agree on the Gnutella Net side of things. I respectfully agree to disagree with you on the naming of this new network, it's just a name and I happen to like it. Everyone knows my views on this, and they now know yours, anything we can move forward on constructively? BTW: The host cache references on the home page are clearly labeled "OpenSource P2P Net" and "Gnutella Net", I don't know why people are confused about this, it's just a reference. |
Where will corporate greed take you today? http://www.zeropaid.com/news/article.../04052002g.php Morpheus: Secret detour tech Removed posted by wiggum on April 04, 2002 @ 02:51pm Streamcast Networks came under fire last month for including software in Morpheus Preview Addition that redirected users from shopping sites such as Amazon to its own shopping service. This has been removed and StreamCast Networks say in future versions Morpheus users' Web browsing will not be affected unless they sign up for the shopping program . Glad to see that this popular file sharing program is removing unwanted bundled software. Read the full story here. http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-875960.html "Cashing in on customers In an effort to exploit their massive customer bases, the online peer-to-peer networks are eyeing several schemes to make money, particularly by serving ads to consumers. " What will they do next to cash in on your CPU cycles and network resources. Remember, people in the UK and other places pay per minute for network access. |
Actually ,no we don't,not any more...at least in the UK.For people not familiar with the UK ISP situation check out this site for Dial-Ups http://www.ispreview.co.uk/list.shtml Or this site for Cable/ADSL http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/category...=communication The UK has long been a leading player for unmetered dialup,and now broadband....why someone(apparently from the UK) pretends otherwise is beyond me Quote:
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Unfortunately, I won't be joining your network. I do thank you for your faithfulness in replying to my posts. Even though my views do not coincide with yours, you've impressed me with your knowledge of the issues. In the interest of being constructive, I certainly hope that you will consider the views I have put forth; I want Gnutella to work just as much as you do. -pp |
OpenSOURCE Net, not OpenNET OK, you've left already, but just to clear up your confusion, it's called OpenSource P2P Net, not OpenNet. We didn't say the network was open, we said the clients were open source. OpenBSD is open source, more so than GPL, but it is ALL about restricting what resources you PC provides, restricting access etc. The tradition of open source is if anything to put the choice in the users hands, and to let users modify source as they like. That is pretty much what we are doing. Nos |
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